Freethought & Rationalism Archive

SkepticBoyLee · 08-22-2004, 12:51 AM

between "dying rising saviour Gods" and Christ like "Christ myther" sites portray.

How do you respond to this???

Thanks in advance.....

SBL :huh:

Toto · 08-22-2004, 01:04 AM

There are in fact some websites and books that claim similarities between Jesus and other mythological beings that are exaggerated or invented entirely. For example, Kersey Graves' The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors.

For a scholarly essay on the problems, please read Kersey Graves and The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors by Richard Carrier.

This does not mean that there are no similarities, or that there is no role for comparative religion in understanding early Christianity. Just that there is some bad scholarship out there.

Roland · 08-22-2004, 07:22 AM

If you read Edith Hamilton's description of Dionysus in "Mythology," you will note that much of what she says about him sounds suspiciously like Jesus, yet she never makes a direct comparison.

She calls him "the vine" and "the resurrection god" and states that he gave hope to people that they, too, could experience an afterlife through him.

Hamilton's "Mythology," which has no anti-Christian ax to grind, is generally considered "the bible" of Greek and Roman mythology.

lulay · 08-22-2004, 08:06 AM

original earth religion of Dionysos was reformed by Orphism. Orphism reformed the wilder elements of Dionysian orgia......
It is thus more the Orphic which inluenced Christianity..."Orpheus~~~musician who tames wild animals~~~turns into Jesus where the bad wild beasts, the lions and lynxes, are weeded out one by one, and we are left...with only a congregation of mild patient sheep". (Shamanism and the Drug Propaganda, Dan Russell)

Chili · 08-22-2004, 11:15 AM

There better be similarities because each and every mythology describes the metamorphosis of humans into man and if they do not reflect this it is either bad religion and/or bad scholarship.

All mythos are responses to this event and are transparent to the same extent that they present us with the details of it. If a mythology contains more than one religion it is to be expected that they are different and this can be a reason for poor scholarship.

Shameless Hussy · 08-22-2004, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkepticBoyLee

between "dying rising saviour Gods" and Christ like "Christ myther" sites portray.
How do you respond to this???

My initial reply would be quite simple: ask whoever said that to first provide a set of workable, objective criteria for determining what is a "real" mythology book and what isn't. And then s/he will need to demonstrate how s/he used those criteria to come up with the list of real and unreal.

Chili · 08-22-2004, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shameless Hussy

My initial reply would be quite simple: ask whoever said that to first provide a set of workable, objective criteria for determining what is a "real" mythology book and what isn't. And then s/he will need to demonstrate how s/he used those criteria to come up with the list of real and unreal.

That's a good suggestion but that has been the problem all along. It would be better to ask how the mythmaker synchronizes his mythology with the rest of them and the problem here is that to do this would nullify the purpose of the myth.

In real life a true mythology can be identified if it can absorb and overshadow (instead of covert) a minor mythology and just be a more or less equal partner with other major mythologies.

SkepticBoyLee · 08-22-2004, 05:27 PM

Is this imgae 200 years before Christianity like it claims or in the 4th century like christians claim??

BTW thanks for the replys and links! :thumbs:

Toto · 08-22-2004, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkepticBoyLee

Is this imgae 200 years before Christianity like it claims or in the 4th century like christians claim??

I see nothing on that image that claims to be 200 years before Christianity, and I think that it is universally dated to the 4th century by Christians and pagans alike.

Peter Kirby · 08-22-2004, 08:09 PM

As far as I am aware, some scholars have placed it in late antiquity (such as the 4th century CE), and others have declared it a forgery. This is from Bede's digging:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bede

Freke and Gandy do not supply a reference for the picture in their book but kindly let me know by email. The first they supplied was R Eisler, Orpheus the Fisher (Kessinger Publishing reprints), first published in 1920 and where the fourth century date for the amulet is given and it is illustrated. Interestingly it is dated to the fourth century simply by virtue of its representation of a crucifixion so could, in theory be older or more recent.

The second reference was WKC Guthrie, Orpheus and Greek Religion Princeton University Press, 1952. This is the second edition and discusses the amulet at some length on page 265. He mentions the views of Eisler and Otto Kern who was a very distinguished German expert on Orpheus. At the time, both considered the gem to be an ancient Orphic artifact and Eisler suggested their was a tradition of a crucified Orpheus. Pointing to the evidence of Justin Martyr, who denies there ever was a crucified pagan, Guthrie rightly rejects this interpretation.

...But there is a final kicker to this story that Freke failed to mention. I found an endnote to the 1952 edition of Guthrie's work (page 278) states:

"In his review of this book [Orpheus and Greek Religion] in Gnomon (1935, p 476), [Otto] Kern [unfeasibly esteemed German expert on Orpheus] recants and expresses himself convinced by the expert opinion of Reil and Zahn [more distinguished Germans] that the gem is a forgery."

I looked up the review in Gnomon but it is in German so I can't make anything of it. Still, the gem has been branded a forgery by noted experts.

best,
Peter Kirby

08-22-2004, 12:51 AM	#1
SkepticBoyLee Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 759	"REAL" mythology books dont show simularities between "dying rising saviour Gods" and Christ like "Christ myther" sites portray. How do you respond to this??? Thanks in advance..... SBL :huh:

08-22-2004, 08:06 AM	#4
lulay Banned Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: manchester, England Posts: 916	Jesus is the same with the naughty bits taken out original earth religion of Dionysos was reformed by Orphism. Orphism reformed the wilder elements of Dionysian orgia...... It is thus more the Orphic which inluenced Christianity..."Orpheus~~~musician who tames wild animals~~~turns into Jesus where the bad wild beasts, the lions and lynxes, are weeded out one by one, and we are left...with only a congregation of mild patient sheep". (Shamanism and the Drug Propaganda, Dan Russell)

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08-22-2004, 01:04 AM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	There are in fact some websites and books that claim similarities between Jesus and other mythological beings that are exaggerated or invented entirely. For example, Kersey Graves' The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors. For a scholarly essay on the problems, please read Kersey Graves and The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors by Richard Carrier. This does not mean that there are no similarities, or that there is no role for comparative religion in understanding early Christianity. Just that there is some bad scholarship out there.

08-22-2004, 07:22 AM	#3
Roland Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: California Posts: 748	If you read Edith Hamilton's description of Dionysus in "Mythology," you will note that much of what she says about him sounds suspiciously like Jesus, yet she never makes a direct comparison. She calls him "the vine" and "the resurrection god" and states that he gave hope to people that they, too, could experience an afterlife through him. Hamilton's "Mythology," which has no anti-Christian ax to grind, is generally considered "the bible" of Greek and Roman mythology.

08-22-2004, 11:15 AM	#5
Chili Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 11,885	There better be similarities because each and every mythology describes the metamorphosis of humans into man and if they do not reflect this it is either bad religion and/or bad scholarship. All mythos are responses to this event and are transparent to the same extent that they present us with the details of it. If a mythology contains more than one religion it is to be expected that they are different and this can be a reason for poor scholarship.

08-22-2004, 05:27 PM	#8
SkepticBoyLee Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 759	Is this imgae 200 years before Christianity like it claims or in the 4th century like christians claim?? BTW thanks for the replys and links! :thumbs:

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