DeepWaters

I started this thread wondering how Christians deal with these sticky passages. I wanted to point them out for discussion and reflection. I'm just interested in how they can reconcile these passages with a good, peaceful, loving Jesus.

Aware of what? This . . .

HUH? Where did I use THAT verse? I thought I only used Greek/New Testament scriptures so far. What do you want me to get out of this Hebrew/Old Testament passage? Do you know what the meaning of 'hate is in Hebrew, in this instance? Do you know whether or not Jacob really did 'hate' her (in the English or Greek sense of the word) or not? That is what we would have to find out.

ten to the eleventh

I don't see where what I said was wrong. Could you please explain more clearly, using my own words, and in the context of the rest of my post, please?

Thank you for your patience and forgiveness,

ten to the eleventh

ten to the eleventh

Have you ever known any True Christians (TM), Deep Waters? Every Christian with whom I've ever been associated has been pretty concerned about their IRA, and not too concerned about the slaughter in Sudan. I'm so confused; what is this "Christianity" thing again? Maybe Inquistive and Chili will explain it to us.

ten to the eleventh

Chili

Your idea that Jesus wanted a cult-like group of followers: Well, I'm with you on the idea that Jesus wanted a cult-like following and here But a "cult" is defined more by the kind of abandonment of customary life, isolation, and control. That is definitely what Jesus was talking about. That was my understanding when I was a Christian, and that is my understanding now.

I am suggesting that your idea of abandonment is not what Jesus had in mind and therefore you are as wrong now as you ever were.

I agree with you that Christianity, as we know it, is exactly the cult you do not approve of but that is not the same as saying that Jesus was wrong. It just means that you and the Christians have the same idea of what Jesus said while I am suggesting that Jesus meant something different and you are both wrong.

inquisitive01

Uh huh. If you're an atheist (meaning you don't believe in God, which also means you must not believe in God's Son, Jesus), why do you care? Just looking for something to try and rub in peoples' faces perhaps?




You originally (in the OP) asked about the Greek word misei. Later, in one of your posts, you replied to someone saying the following:

In the OP, you asked the following question: "Any theist willing to dispute that?"

Sooooooo, it's been disputed. Later, after the dispute was made (which should have satisfied your original request), you go on and say one cannot translate the Greek into English, and then go by the English definitions for the word "hate." Well, if you can't go by the English definitions (including "to shrink from") for the word "hate," then there's no reason to translate it in the first place, is there? :huh:

Chili

Sorry but I think it is fair game here on an atheist board. If anything, you should make sure that you have all your ducks in a row lest they all be shot down.

ten to the eleventh

I can tell from your response that I need to be clearer. I did not, as you suggest, say that Christianity, as we know it, is a cult. "Christianity" is far too broad, and inclusive of too many diverse sub-groups to be called a cult. What I am saying is that Jesus wanted a cult-like abandonment of customary life, and cult-like total obedience and belief.

Just to be clear, I am saying that Jesus did not actually want his followers to feel hatred toward their family and self, but that he was saying, through the exaggerated fashion typical of writing at that time, that all concern was to be placed on following him. In other words, he wanted abandonment of concern for family, friends, self, and everything of this world.

As Deep Waters pointed out:
The message from the OP verse, this Luke verse, and many others is very clear: We are to abandon our worldly lives and take up the cross. You suggest that this is what Christians today say, and that this is not what Jesus wanted. You have it backwards. This IS what Jesus wanted, and this is precisely what almost every "Christian" today ignores and suppresses. How can you claim that "you and the Christians have the same idea of what Jesus said," when I just explained how clear it is that Christians today do not actually believe as I do about their own holy book, and that if they did, they would be VERY different people than we see today?

You are claiming that my "idea of abandonment is not what Jesus had in mind," and "Jesus meant something different," but you are not providing any reason that I am wrong, and you are not telling us what Jesus "really" meant. I am taking a straight-forward reading of the words, with a little generosity thrown in for the "hatred" bit (in an effort to be fair), but you are saying that what Jesus very apparently said is not what he meant. So, the onus is upon you to prove your claim.

I might add: there have been a lot of highly literate monks who have agreed, for centuries, with my basic position. They leave their families, they take a vow of poverty, they try to make us believe that they are not concerned about tomorrow on Earth, but are solely focused on the afterlife.

Speaking of which, check this out:

http://www.themq.com/index.php?articleid=186&issue=107

Philippe*

"hate" here is a hebraism, in order to be understood by the crowd he was addressing.

Philippe

Chili

And I am saying that that is exactly what he meant and the last thing he would do is tell a lie to mislead followers for all he needed to so is speak the truth and followers with 'curious eyes' would misinterpet him anyway.

Here is what I said he meant: "Where you go wrong is to assume that we can willfully abandon our own life but that is not possible because the very will to do this must itself be abandonned and that is why the uttering "Abba Father" is an appropriate metaphor for this. This same idea is expressed with the "timely uttering" by William Woodsworth in his "Intimations of Immortality."


In other words, it is a non-rational surrender that Jesus is after wherein our entire faculty of reason must be surrendered and that makes it a non-rational event out of hate for one's own big little empire in this world.

inquisitive01

So this is like a "seek-and-destroy" hunting mission for you? Are them thar' high atheist morals starting to showing through perhaps?

Hey, thanks for replying for DeepWaters, btw! :down: