DeepWaters

Anybody here know Greek?

Luke 14:26 (KJV) Jesus says:

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Luke 14:26 (ISV) "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters, as well as his own life, he can't be my disciple.

Transliterated, Pronounceable (Greek)

Luke 14:26 @"Ei'-tis e'rchetai pro'sme kai' ou misei' to'n pate'ra heautou' kai' tee'n meete'ra kai'tee'n gunai'ka kai' ta' te'kna kai' tou's adelfou's kai' ta'sadelfa's e'ti te kai' tee'n psuchee'n heautou', ou du'nataiei'nai' mou matheetee's!

Transliterated, Unaccented (Greek)
Luke 14:26 @"Ei-tis erchetai prosme kai ou misei ton patera heautou kai ten metera kaiten gunaika kai ta tekna kai tous adelfous kai tasadelfas eti te kai ten psuchen heautou, ou dunataieinai mou mathetes!


So, what does 'Misei'/ hate mean?

GREEK TRANSLATION:

μισώ = detest, hate
miso

http://kypros.org/cgi-bin/lexicon

AND . . .

Miso (Misco?) - to hate, to pursue with hatred, detest (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon)

Any theist willing to despute that?

Toto

This is the identical subject to this recent thread, which is still on the first page:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=96454

Is it being raised in a new thread for a reason?

DeepWaters

Well, I did not see the old thread, and I see that the people on the other thread tended to get a bit off-topic.

In this verse, Jesus certainly sounds like a cult leader. It is cult leaders who say: "In order to join us, you must cut off your ties to your family."

In Mark 10:29-30 (KJV) Jesus says:

“And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.�

In some translations it says 'abandon' (same concept, only more apparent). Well, theists, it looks to me like your Jesus was a cult leader.

Chili

Anything but that. An occult, perhaps, that recognizes the supernatural as a viable force in our life.

Abandon is OK to suggest that we must abandon our lower house (conscious mind) to get into the upper house (subconscious mind). Is that so difficult to understand?

DeepWaters

Um, you think he was speaking metaphorically, but most people would not take it that way.

Evoken

It is aimed at those who hath ears to hear.

Chili

That's really too bad and that must be hard on family relationships. If that is true it would be wise to introduce some sort of censorship and maybe restrict bible reading to senior citizens only.

inquisitive01

One dispute would be that "hate" means "to shrink from" (try a normal dictionary). This would mean that, to be a disciple, one's love for his/her family, life, etc., must become less than (shrink in comparison to) his/her love for God (and Jesus, the Son of God). This would seem to be the most likely definition of "hate" since, in other parts of the Bible, emphasis is placed on loving one another (not hating each other - hating in this instance meaning "detesting, disliking strongly, loathing, despising, etc.").

DeepWaters

-- King James
1 John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

-- American Standard
1 John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, cannot love God whom he hath not seen.

-- Transliterated, Pronounceable
1 John 4:20 Ea'n tis ei'pee ho'ti Agapoo' to'n Theo'n kai'to'n adelfo'n autou' misee', pseu'stees esti'n. Ho ga'r mee'agapoo'n to'n adelfo'n autou' ho'n heoo'raken, to'n Theo'n ho'nouch heoo'raken ou {*} du'natai agapa'n.

-- Transliterated, Unaccented
1 John 4:20 Ean tis eipe hoti Agapo ton Theon kaiton adelfon autou mise, pseustes estin. Ho gar meagapon ton adelfon autou hon heoraken, ton Theon honouch heoraken ou {*} dunatai agapan.

-- Darby's Bible
1 John 4:20 If any one say, I love God, and hate his brother, he is a liar: for he that loves not his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?

-- International Standard Version
1 John 4:20 Whoever says, "I love God," but hates his brother is a liar. The one who does not love the brother whom he has seen cannot love a God whom he has not seen.

-- William's NewTestament
1 John 4:20 If anyone says, "I love God," and yet habitually hates his brother, he is a liar; for whoever does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.

-- Montgomery New Testament
1 John 4:20 If anyone says, "I love God," and yet hates his brother, he is a liar, for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot possibly love God, whom he has not seen.


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This verse uses the SAME word. Are you saying this also means to 'love less' or to 'love to a lesser degree'?

In that case, Christians who love human beings 'less' than God are bad, in this instance!

If 'to love less' is what the verse means, than the verse would read like this, instead:

If a man say, I love God, and loves his brother less, he is a liar: for he that loveth less his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

HUH?!?!?! That would not make any sense!

Hate means HATE (detest), okay? There's no other translation (unless Christians make something up out of thin air!!!!).

DeepWaters

Try a NORMAL dictionary? What do you mean? An English dictionary? Helloooo! Greek is NOT English! What are you talking about??? Whatver it means in Greek, that is what it means. Period.