Freethought & Rationalism Archive

JEST2ASK · 02-26-2007, 09:50 AM

I am involved in a discussion with several Christian acquaintances and they mentioned a third heaven reference in the New Testament ... the only thing I could find that vaguely fits that is 2 -Corinthians 12:22 and several passages in Revelation regarding either a third of the stars / angels falling and destroying a third of the earth ....

I think they are referring to something like the levels of hell which is not strictly biblical (Dante's Inferno / Limbo / Purgatory etc etc ) or perhaps the idea that there are levels of rewards in the afterlife (I sure there are some scripture implying that)... The separating of the Lambs and the Goats or the My Father has Man Mansions type passages

I orginally posted this in GRD but got limited responses ...
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...74#post4207974

Quote:

Douglas
I think it usually springs from that passage in 2 Corinthians, but what did Paul mean when he wrote it?

Viewing the universe in layers was common in ancient mythology, so it would have been easy for people to see heaven as having different levels.

And it may not be too much of a stretch to say that Paul was influenced somewhat by Emanationism, as defined by Plotinus. The idea that there was different emanations of God, kind of like ripples in a pond when you drop a pebble in the water. The farther away you get from the core (i.e. God) the weaker God's presence becomes.

Any input would be appreciated

Malachi151 · 02-26-2007, 10:01 AM

See my discussion of this in this article:

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar...h_followup.htm

Scroll down to " Of Angels, Heaven, Visions, Sacrifices, Passion, and Ecstasy"

JEST2ASK · 02-26-2007, 01:39 PM

Malachi151, Thank You very much :notworthy:

... however some follow-up help requested ... where can I get printable versions of the two illustrations ... I have seen the 1st reprinted in several places but wonder if both have reference sources .. I am sure I will be asked many questions about them ...

It seems as usual questions lead to more complexity than I first thought ...
you have provide some very good material on one portion ... now I need some help regarding the idea of different heavenly rewards based on one's earthly works ..

Malachi151 · 02-26-2007, 01:47 PM

The second one (the main one) comes from an old guy who is dead now and is no longer under copyright.

http://members.citynet.net/morton/charts.htm

Sheshbazzar · 02-26-2007, 02:27 PM

I believe that the distinctions in various "levels" of heaven, lies within the original language having several terms to describe those "heavenly" realms that were/are normally outside the reach of men.
For example the "sky" as "heaven", being the region or realm of weather phenomenum, wind, rain, lightning.
The "firmament" (Gen. 1:7, 1:20) the "air", region or realm in which birds fly, near at hand, and an upper "firmament" ,the region or realm where the "lights", the sun, moon, and stars are set and rule from (Gen. 1:14)
This concept of the earth under the "vault" or dome of heaven, and "heaven" having multiple "layers" or levels was not exclusive to the theology of Israel.
With the Hebrews fundamental concept of "seven" as the number of "completness" or "the fullness", it was natural for them to concieve of heaven(s) as being complete in seven levels.

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02-26-2007, 10:01 AM	#2
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	See my discussion of this in this article: http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar...h_followup.htm Scroll down to " Of Angels, Heaven, Visions, Sacrifices, Passion, and Ecstasy"

02-26-2007, 01:39 PM	#3
JEST2ASK Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Central - New York Posts: 4,108	Malachi151, Thank You very much :notworthy: ... however some follow-up help requested ... where can I get printable versions of the two illustrations ... I have seen the 1st reprinted in several places but wonder if both have reference sources .. I am sure I will be asked many questions about them ... It seems as usual questions lead to more complexity than I first thought ... you have provide some very good material on one portion ... now I need some help regarding the idea of different heavenly rewards based on one's earthly works ..

02-26-2007, 01:47 PM	#4
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	The second one (the main one) comes from an old guy who is dead now and is no longer under copyright. http://members.citynet.net/morton/charts.htm

02-26-2007, 02:27 PM	#5
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	I believe that the distinctions in various "levels" of heaven, lies within the original language having several terms to describe those "heavenly" realms that were/are normally outside the reach of men. For example the "sky" as "heaven", being the region or realm of weather phenomenum, wind, rain, lightning. The "firmament" (Gen. 1:7, 1:20) the "air", region or realm in which birds fly, near at hand, and an upper "firmament" ,the region or realm where the "lights", the sun, moon, and stars are set and rule from (Gen. 1:14) This concept of the earth under the "vault" or dome of heaven, and "heaven" having multiple "layers" or levels was not exclusive to the theology of Israel. With the Hebrews fundamental concept of "seven" as the number of "completness" or "the fullness", it was natural for them to concieve of heaven(s) as being complete in seven levels.

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