Robert_Plant

This is my very first virgin post so I'll understand if I'm pointed to another thread on this. If Jesus was a practicing Jew as was his disciples why did they up and decide that Judaism was no longer good and they needed to start a new religion based off Jesus being the messaih predicted in jewish scripture? Is there old testament scripture explaining the need to do that?

I guess I want to know from christians and others on this board why there needed to be a new religion at all and how it "fits" with the old testament (since thats all jewish writing). Did the Jews do things "right" for a long while and then somewhere along the line God decided that they were doing it "wrong" and that this messiah who was gonna come down eventually anyways was gonna spark this "new" religion and it all jives with scripture. So again, why the need for the new faith?

AdamWho

I have an explanation. During New Testament times the Middle East was a cross-road of many cultures and beliefs. The rigidity of Judaism was unworkable in this multi-cultural multi-belief setting and needed reformed, changed or scrapped in this Christianity was born. A similar event took place with Hinduism and Buddhism.

The formula which is repeated endlessly almost everywhere in the world constantly:
(rigid belief system) + (changing situation) = New religion.

DavidfromTexas

Your questions are excellent.

The answers to the questions are fascinating. In my opinion, one of the best discourses providing answers to your questions is found in the book of Romans, particularly chapters 9 through 11. I would suggest starting at Romans 8:12 and go forward to get some of the context of what Paul is saying.

The discourse is very deep, it is a treasure-trove of information. If you have specific questions about the passages, then please say so... particularly if some of your questions remain unanswered after reading Romans.

Robert_Plant

After reading Romans 9 thru 11 I gather that the jews over a period of time put works over faith/grace? That money(?) and having ridgid, ridiculous laws was becoming the main concern for the "leaders" in the temples as opposed to faith. Was it always clear that faith was the thing that was of most importance and the emphaisis on works (is this related to giving money to temple/church excessively?) was second-banana?

And is it assumed or known that God didn't know the jews were going to turn this way (also didn't God not plan the fall of man and that it really was just the very first product in the line malfuntioning?) and he'd have to change plans?

FatherMithras

God sure seems to not know alot about the future for someone who's omniscient. He keeps making stuff that doesn't work in the long run.

Dargo

Christianity really didn't succeed in replacing Judaism. It's messsage was far better received among pagan Gentiles than Jews. Jews then and now pretty much consider the idea of Jesus being the Messiah to be nonsense. This rather embarassing fact may account for a lot of the antisemitism found in the New Testament.

noah

You pose an excellent question Robert. The key with Christianity is that it was named after a guy - Jesus - who never intended the religion named after him to be based on him, based on faith in him, more precisely, as a human blood sacrifice. JC's intent was that the commandments, his Father Yahweh's commandments, be followed. JC/Yahweh designed their laws to be the path of righteousness and salvation. But it was Paul, who, acting without biblical authority repealed the laws of JC and his Father - remember they are one - and declared that Christianity was all about putting your faith in JC as a human blood sacrifice and not following the Law. Paul's new doctrine became mainstream Christian doctrine. Paul's doctrine however, violated God's (JC and His Father's) commandments against changing the law, diminishing the law or teaching others to break the law. Remember, God declared in both the so-called "Old Testament" and New Testament that his laws were perfect, immutable and permanent and woe to those who sought to alter the law or detract from it.
So you see it comes down to a massive rift, a cleavage between Paul and God. Christians have decided to go with Paul for some reason and abandon God and his laws, both of which for humans' purposes, are one. Note that Paul is contradicted by most of the rest of the bible. There is in fact no mention of Paul in the OT at all. In passage after passage in the OT where God lays down his laws you find no mention of Paul, no mention of his laws being cancelled at some point by an anti-semite named Paul. In fact, it's important to remember that Paul is not even a member of the Trinity yet he somehow has, in the minds of Christians, the authority to contradict God's word.
Whenever you get a Christian citing Paul to you, make sure to come right back with Mathew 5:17-19.:
and these verses as well:

Rev.22:14, Rev:14:12, Deuteronomy 4:40, Deuteronomy 5:29,

Deuteronomy 4:2 and

Deuteronomy 12:32 Sometimes you'll hear Christians say that the law simply cannot be obeyed, that obeying the law is an impossible hardship. Make sure you come back with 1st. John 5:3 and the story of Zacharias and Elizabeth in Luke 1:5
Then ask the Christian why, if it's impossible to obey the law did God/JC command everyone to obey the law? Was it a flight of fancy on God's part? A sick demented joke?

Paul also took vast unforgivable liberties with God's word. In fact, he rewrote it. He misquoted it to suit his own purposes which is another problem with Paul that Christians either don't know about or don't care about.
In order to push his new doctrine of faith, Paul changed the words in Deuteronomy 30:14. Paul says in Romans 10:8: But what does Deut 30:14 really say? You guessed it. It talks about the law and the organic connention everyone has to it:
(It's actually rather Kabbalistic)

So what you actually have today are a group of people ignorantly calling themselves Christians when they are, in reality, Paulinians.
The key question for Christians is who reigns supreme? Who reigns forever? They'll tell you immediately that it's JC and his Father followed by an avalanche of hallelujahs and "praise the lords" but the truth is when it comes to God's word, it's Paul they worship.
If you're going to call yourself Christian then do what Christ said. Not what Paul said. And that's the problem for Christians today.

John Kesler

I don't think that Jesus had any intention of starting a new religion. He was a Jew who worshiped the Jewish God and taught his followers the proper interpretation of Yahweh's law. Jesus (Matthew 4:17; 10:7), like John the Baptist (Matthew 3:2), thought that the world as he knew it would soon end when God intervened and established the "kingdom of God/heaven," admittance to which was based on works (Matthew 25). After Jesus' death, his followers and later adherents to Christianity came to believe that Jesus was resurrected and that Jesus' death was foreordained, all part of God's plan (1 Peter 1:18-20 and many others). The sacrificial system plus the ideology of vicarious atonement (Isaiah 53; 2 Maccabees 7; 2 Samuel 21) provided the paradigm by which to view Jesus' crucifixion, and thus a new religion was born. This is a very simplified summary, but it represents my understanding.

DavidfromTexas

Yes, that is part of the story.

It seems that the answer is yes.


God always knew, always knows, and always knows everything in the future. Nothing surrprises Him.

God is all-knowing and all-powerful.

DavidfromTexas

All according to His own purpose, yes.

All done according to the pleasure of His will.