Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Phineas Flapdoodle · 05-26-2004, 09:42 PM

This is simply a copy of my answer to Mike W.T just before we were all reminded that the discussion should be continued in the appropriate forum, and not IICR (conference room) so here we go::

Quote:

:
Originally Posted by mike T.W.
...

I am talking about internet forums in general, and this partcular forum aswell. You see, there is usually a section which asks something like, "Is the bible true, is it the word of God or man". Now this has always been a strange thing to me. I honestly thought people wouldn't pick on one book, one book of what you would probably call religion. I have been told there are many religions, so I wondered why this one.

All I meant by bashing, is that people try or somehow think that they have succesfully refuted the bible, and found these "contradictions". I find it hard to see why in a forum full of people who preach logic and fallacies, why they should only allow one possibility in their minds. They seem to take "contradictions" and "it is the word of man" as absolutes.

You must first realize that thousands of contradictions indicate something about the true nature of 'WHO' wrote the Bible. Please just examine them (serious errors and contradictions) yourself; pick a few links and read the contradictions::

A List Of Biblical Contradictions
... quotes provided. Self-contradictions of the Bible. ... DeHaan, MR 508 answers to Bible
questions : with answers to seeming Bible contradictions / MR DeHaan. ...
http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...adictions.html - 53k - May 25, 2004

The Argument from the Bible
... (6) The Bible contains no contradictions. ... 5. More Contradictions. According to premise (6) of the Argument from the Bible, the Bible contains no contradictions. ...
http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...nge/bible.html - 90k -

Textual Contradictions in the Bible
Library: Magazines: The Skeptical Review: 1990: Number Four:
Textual Contradictions in the Bible. Textual Contradictions in the Bible. ...
http://www.infidels.org/library/maga.../4contr90.html - 16k

Biblical Errancy
... A List of Biblical Contradictions by Jim Meritt. Biblical Errancy (Off Site). ... Introduction to the Bible and Biblical Problems. Key to Abbreviations. ...
http://www.infidels.org/library/mode.../errancy.shtml - 15k

Biblical Inconsistencies
... NOTE: These lists are meant to identify possible problems in the Bible, especially problems which are inherent in a literalist or fundamentalist interpretation ...
http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...stencies.shtml - 101k - May 26, 2004

Bible Inerrancy: A Belief Without Evidence
... the depth of scholarship that Miller finds on his side in the Bible inerrancy controversy, so when he says that all "alleged" Bible contradictions and errors ...
http://www.infidels.org/library/maga.../4evide92.html - 31k

Biblical Contradictions (June 2000)
... ago I asked this question: "How, in the year 2000, can people still believe that the bible is reliable, infallible, and without contradictions?" Questions have ...
http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...adictions.html - 13k

Books about Biblical Errancy
... modern day inerrantists, made a pathetic try in his Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties, but, like most 'explanations' of 'alleged Bible contradictions,' his is ...
http://www.infidels.org/infidels/pro...y/errancy.html - 48k -

Asa and Archer: Does the Bible contain errors?
... Archer also admits that we may have Bible contradictions, or Bible difficulties as he prefers to call them, for which we may have no reasonable explanation. ...
http://www.infidels.org/library/mode.../asa_arch.html - 37k -

New Testament Contradictions
... the Bible is most definitely not, in any sense, the Word of God. The church has made imaginative (and often absurd) attempts to reconcile these contradictions. ...
http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...adictions.html - 54k

Playing the Odds
... Gleason Archer the chief apostle of the inerrancy doctrine, discussed over
2,100 specific cases of "alleged" Bible contradictions and discrepancies. ...
http://www.infidels.org/library/maga.../2front91.html - 15k

that's is just the 'short list' of relevant sources that address your questions, Mike - that LIST was obtained by search for: " bible contradictions " - so there you go, IF anyone wants to recreate it for some reason (see more, for example)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

my off-the-cuff answer follows ( -but the links above, address this MUCH better than I do here, so I suggest Mike T.W. , you give these on-site sources of scholarship, AT least a cursory examination for what you're seeking... by the way, you came to us why? we are glad you're hear and asking, though, frankly speaking...

If "God" as Christians believe him to be, a perfect and powerful being, how could it be that the Biblical words came from that "God" ? - logic and reason tells us that your "God" is either not infallible nor is he near perfection (he wouldn't have 'allowed' such contradictory, error filled book(s) ), OR this supernatural "God" is perfect, but THEN HE COULDN'T have had a damn thing to do with the biblical writings (they are a contradictory mess of error after error! fact, look at the evidence!), so...believe whatever you would like.

cheers
Stephen J

ichabod crane · 05-26-2004, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phineasf

If "God" as Christians believe him to be, a perfect and powerful being, how could it be that the Biblical words came from that "God" ? - logic and reason tells us that your "God" is either not infallible nor is he near perfection (he wouldn't have 'allowed' such contradictory, error filled book(s) ), OR this supernatural "God" is perfect, but THEN HE COULDN'T have had a damn thing to do with the biblical writings (they are a contradictory mess of error after error! fact, look at the evidence!), so...believe whatever you would like.

Hello Stephen! Two things:

(a) I've tried a few of the links you posted, and they don't work. I just get an error message "The requested URL was not found on this server" (maybe God is trying to stop me from looking?

) I suspect the problem is the ... in the URLs.

(b) It seems to me that you have forced a choice between a book being either entirely dictated by God, or entirely human. But surely there is a possible middle position: the Bible is the product of both human and divine action working together. There are various ways this could happen. For instance, God might have revealed himself in the person of Christ, and then people who knew Christ wrote stuff down. Since they are only humans writing stuff down, what they write might contain errors, contradictions, and be coloured by their culture and so forth. But that doesn't mean that it is entirely unreliable, or that the revelation of God is not to be found in the text.

Just a thought.

DinoStoned · 05-26-2004, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ichabod crane

(b) It seems to me that you have forced a choice between a book being either entirely dictated by God, or entirely human. But surely there is a possible middle position: the Bible is the product of both human and divine action working together. There are various ways this could happen. For instance, God might have revealed himself in the person of Christ, and then people who knew Christ wrote stuff down. Since they are only humans writing stuff down, what they write might contain errors, contradictions, and be coloured by their culture and so forth. But that doesn't mean that it is entirely unreliable, or that the revelation of God is not to be found in the text.

Well, by insisting that the Bible is true in every single word it says, fundamentalists have taken away that middle ground, don't you think?

Sven · 05-27-2004, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike T.W.

Sven, I am saying if you only have one conclusion for the bible then yes, you have closed your mind to the possibility of that truth.

And I'm saying that if you only have one conclusion regarding the flatness of the Earth, you have closed your mind, too. There's simply a point when holding a position against the evidence just becomes ridiculous.

Quote:

I mean, if the bible is true - then you're wrong, it's as simple as that. If you say "the bible is the word of man, untrue, with contradictions, and the God of the bible doesn't exist"

Nice straw man. All I was/am (essentially) saying is that the bible is not inerrant. I can agree on "the bible is the word of man, with contradictions", but I never claimed that it is entirely untrue. And simply based on the errancy of the bible, it's impossible to claim that "the God of the bible doesn't exist". I would BTW never claim this, only that his existence has a very, very tiny probability.

Quote:

Then if he does exist, and it is true, and it is inspired by him, then who was making the wrong conclusion?

Then this wrong conclusion would not be my fault. Every rational person would conclude that the bible is errant after reading (parts of) it. If your god (if he exists) wishes that people come to the conclusion of inerrancy, he should have done a better job in inspiring this book.

Quote:

If you cannot even see the possibilities the bible suggests, then indeed, one can only conclude that your agenda is that you really hate the bible and are against it and it's followers.

After an example of a straw-man, we now have an example of a non-sequitur.

I don't hate the bible - at best parts of it like commandments to stone homosexuals and such things. And I certainly don't hate its followers - at best fundies who think that such commandments are a good thing.

Quote:

Afterall, this is a secular web - full of atheists, and they are all shouting the same thing. "We were once christian, we have de-converted".

And now a fallacy of generalization (as pointed out by others in the other thread). Do you attempt to work through the entire list of logical fallacies?

Phineas Flapdoodle · 05-27-2004, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ichabod crane

Hello Stephen! Two things:

(a) I've tried a few of the links you posted, and they don't work. I just get an error message "The requested URL was not found on this server" (maybe God is trying to stop me from looking?

) I suspect the problem is the ... in the URLs.

i haven't checked them all, but only the bottom 3, and those work for me, so I'm not saying that some links are not in error, but I'm pressed for time. Look at the ones that work, for now please- sometime soon (I'm headed for vacation, and out the door this minute - visiting ground zero (9-11) among other things for next 5 days. I'll catch up with this thread then, I hope. I couldn't edit the post to correct links now, anyway (2 hour window Ichabod for regualr users to edit their own posts), a mod or admin will have to do it. Welcome to the forums here, mr crane!

Quote:

Originally Posted by ichabod crane

(b) It seems to me that you have forced a choice between a book being either entirely dictated by God, or entirely human. But surely there is a possible middle position: the Bible is the product of both human and divine action working together. There are various ways this could happen. For instance, God might have revealed himself in the person of Christ, and then people who knew Christ wrote stuff down. Since they are only humans writing stuff down, what they write might contain errors, contradictions, and be coloured by their culture and so forth. But that doesn't mean that it is entirely unreliable, or that the revelation of God is not to be found in the text.

Just a thought.

Now I didn't say or it wasn't implied (I don't think) that every word was from "God" so I'm not forciing the arguments into that box, but.....I'm out the door and hitting the gas in 60 seconds. HAH!

I just don't believe in the "unnatural." I don't believe in psychics, ghosts, or any other paranormal "thing" that comes along, or has come along; I believe in nothing that is supernatural or unnatural, so why should I believe in some powerful force that man long ago named "God" ? - For pete's sake, they were raving superstitious, ignorant people a couple thousand years ago, and they were fascinated with the written language ... , FYI. (more on this, and where it lead, in a week or less perhaps, Ichabod! - I hope you stick around and voice your opinion and share your knowledge and insights - yup, I do)

I just don't think it (the force you and the Bible call "God") ever existed and doesn't exist now. There certainly hasn't been any credible evidence EVER presented to even begin to pretend that "God" exists - PERIOD. There is a mountain of circumstantial eveidence that indicates that the force you worship, the same one that's in the Bible, doesn't exist.

That's it, in a nutshell.

Happy days!

mike T.W. · 05-28-2004, 04:48 PM

Sorry but there aren't contradictions in the bible. It's like this, there's only a leak in my roof when atheists come to stay. Figure that out and then we'll talk.

As for circumstancial evidence indicating my God doesn't exist, well - I totally disagree, I think the opposite. Name one thing that doesn't come under "doubt" then we'll talk,

mike T.W. · 05-28-2004, 04:59 PM

Also, I clicked your links, and it is the same stuff I've heard before. Silly interpretations of scripture, taken out of context and compared with another book which might be trying to emphasize a point.

I understand if you don't believe in the supernatural realities of God.

That is the problem though. Often when I read these things, the usual stuff with the source being "doubt".

Javaman · 05-28-2004, 05:48 PM

Maybe you can help put this one back into context, then?

John 5
31 `If I testify concerning myself, my testimony is not true;

John 8
14 Jesus answered and said to them, `And if I testify of myself -- my testimony is true, because I have known whence I came, and whither I go, and ye -- ye have not known whence I come, or whither I go.

There is an extraordinarily large number of numerical inconsistencies and several blatent contridictions that to say "there aren't contradictions in the bible" seems grossly inaccurate. The differing stories about Jesus' tomb should be enough for anybody.

GakuseiDon · 05-28-2004, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javaman

Maybe you can help put this one back into context, then?

John 5
31 `If I testify concerning myself, my testimony is not true;

John 8
14 Jesus answered and said to them, `And if I testify of myself -- my testimony is true, because I have known whence I came, and whither I go, and ye -- ye have not known whence I come, or whither I go.

There is an extraordinarily large number of numerical inconsistencies and several blatent contridictions that to say "there aren't contradictions in the bible" seems grossly inaccurate. The differing stories about Jesus' tomb should be enough for anybody.

Javaman, that is the perfect example of something being taken out of its context. Read it in its context, and it is clear there is no contradiction. In both cases, Jesus has the testimony of God. See John 5:37 and John 8:18.

Mike is right. Unfortunately, a lot of these so-called 'contradictions' are quotes ripped out of their context.

Javaman · 05-28-2004, 07:34 PM

Then help me out, please. I don't think you're an inerrantist, though. You don't have any issues with the obvious numerical contridictions, then?

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05-28-2004, 04:48 PM	#6
mike T.W. Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: UK - North West England Posts: 232	Sorry but there aren't contradictions in the bible. It's like this, there's only a leak in my roof when atheists come to stay. Figure that out and then we'll talk. As for circumstancial evidence indicating my God doesn't exist, well - I totally disagree, I think the opposite. Name one thing that doesn't come under "doubt" then we'll talk,

05-28-2004, 04:59 PM	#7
mike T.W. Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: UK - North West England Posts: 232	Also, I clicked your links, and it is the same stuff I've heard before. Silly interpretations of scripture, taken out of context and compared with another book which might be trying to emphasize a point. I understand if you don't believe in the supernatural realities of God. That is the problem though. Often when I read these things, the usual stuff with the source being "doubt".

05-28-2004, 05:48 PM	#8
Javaman Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Nebraska Posts: 1,708	Maybe you can help put this one back into context, then? John 5 31 `If I testify concerning myself, my testimony is not true; John 8 14 Jesus answered and said to them, `And if I testify of myself -- my testimony is true, because I have known whence I came, and whither I go, and ye -- ye have not known whence I come, or whither I go. There is an extraordinarily large number of numerical inconsistencies and several blatent contridictions that to say "there aren't contradictions in the bible" seems grossly inaccurate. The differing stories about Jesus' tomb should be enough for anybody.

05-28-2004, 07:34 PM	#10
Javaman Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Nebraska Posts: 1,708	Then help me out, please. I don't think you're an inerrantist, though. You don't have any issues with the obvious numerical contridictions, then?

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