Freethought & Rationalism Archive

arnoldo · 02-12-2008, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Before im off to a few hours sleep let me end this session by saying "The Hammers (Sugar, Arnoldo) hammers continuously against the rocks of error, until they are broken into a thousand pieces....and they will brake sooner or later. Good night.

These particular "hammers" will break into a thousand pieces, leaving the solid rock of reality still there.

I would like to leave this thread open, since it just emphasizes how prophecy fails again and again, but I think this thread will be closed if no one can come up with anything new to say.

Well, I asked what the MANY NATIONS were which came against Tyre and so far I think someone listed one or two nations. In contrast when Alexander the Great attacked Tyre he realized he needed SHIPS to defeat Tyre. So far no one has claimed that Nebby used any sort of Navy to attack Tyre. In any event Alexander did in fact summon MANY NATIONS under grecian control to build ships and attack tyre. Sorry, your argument that Nebby fulfills the MANY NATIONS is rubbish.

arnoldo · 02-12-2008, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

I'm still waiting for a list of the many nations which formed a part of Nebby's army.

Wasn't he allied with the Medes and the Scythians?

So that's the MANY NATIONS coming wave upon wave to attack Tyre?

Johnny Skeptic · 02-12-2008, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnolo

Well, I asked what the MANY NATIONS were which came against Tyre and so far I think someone listed one or two nations.

And you have been told many times that the "many nations" part of prophecy was probably added after if became apparent that Nebuchadnezzar would defeat Tyre.

If the God of the Bible exists, he could easily have inspired many indisputable prophecies thousands of years ago. As it is, the Bible does not contain one single indisputable prophecy. Why is that? An example of an indisputable prophecy would be a prophecy that predicts when and where a natural disaster will occur, month, day, and year.

If Micah had predicted that the messiah would rule a heavenly kindgom instead of an earthly kingdom like Micah misled the Jews to believe, and had predicted that the messiah would heal people, and that the messiah would be crucified, buried, and rise from the dead in three days, and that Pontius Pilate would become the Roman governor of Palestine, and that Herod would become the King of Judea, surely more Jews would have accepted Jesus. Historically, many people have accepted all kinds of outlandish religions based upon much less convincing evidence than that.

JayW · 02-12-2008, 02:36 PM

The Assyrans may have used ships supplied by the Phoenicians, but Alexander built a causeway to the island.

Quote:

It was often attacked by Egypt, besieged by Shalmaneser V, who was assisted by the Phoenicians of the mainland, for five years, and by Nebuchadnezzar (586–573 BC) for thirteen years, without success, although a compromise peace was made in which Tyre paid tribute to the Babylonians. It later fell under the power of the Persians.

In 332 BC, the city was conquered by Alexander the Great, after a siege of seven months in which he built the causeway from the mainland to the island[10], but it continued to maintain much of its commercial importance until the Christian era. The presence of the causeway affected water currents nearby, causing sediment to build up, making the connection permanent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre,_Lebanon

arnoldo · 02-12-2008, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnolo

Well, I asked what the MANY NATIONS were which came against Tyre and so far I think someone listed one or two nations.

And you have been told many times that the "many nations" part of prophecy was probably added after if became apparent that Nebuchadnezzar would defeat Tyre.
.

WRONG ANSWER. You're supposed to parrot the bogus line that the many nations = nebby's army. Try again.

Johnny Skeptic · 02-12-2008, 03:05 PM

Message to arnoldo: If the God of the Bible exists, he could easily have inspired many indisputable prophecies thousands of years ago. As it is, the Bible does not contain one single indisputable prophecy. Why is that? An example of an indisputable prophecy would be a prophecy that predicts when and where a natural disaster will occur, month, day, and year.

If Micah had predicted that the messiah would rule a heavenly kindgom instead of an earthly kingdom like Micah misled the Jews to believe, and had predicted that the messiah would heal people, and that the messiah would be crucified, buried, and rise from the dead in three days, and that Pontius Pilate would become the Roman governor of Palestine, and that Herod would become the King of Judea, surely more Jews would have accepted Jesus. Historically, many people have accepted all kinds of outlandish religions based upon much less convincing evidence than that.

Why are you so evasive? If you want to discuss these issues in another thread, just let me know which one. If you do not want to embarrass yourself, just say so and I will not ask to you discuss these issues any more.

Minimalist · 02-12-2008, 03:07 PM

Quote:

My point exactly! As well as Ezekiel 26 27 Jeremiah and Isaiah and Joel. Um...so how can God bring the sea over the city of Tyre if it is destroyed by Nebby? (Oh please answer this)

Unfortunately for you not only is it still above the water, it has been re-built, too. Your 'god' seems to need a lot of spin control for an allegedly "all-knowing" being. But he still got it wrong.

Sheshonq · 02-12-2008, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

These particular "hammers" will break into a thousand pieces, leaving the solid rock of reality still there.

I would like to leave this thread open, since it just emphasizes how prophecy fails again and again, but I think this thread will be closed if no one can come up with anything new to say.

Well, I asked what the MANY NATIONS were which came against Tyre and so far I think someone listed one or two nations.

No, you were given Babylon, which is comprised of many nations.

Quote:

In contrast when Alexander the Great attacked Tyre he realized he needed SHIPS to defeat Tyre.

More bad history. Alexander did not defeat Tyre with a navy.

Quote:

So far no one has claimed that Nebby used any sort of Navy to attack Tyre.

sugarhitman claimed that Babylon didn't have the required equipment, including a navy, to make the attack. You should ask him when he plans to support that claim.

Quote:

In any event Alexander did in fact summon MANY NATIONS under grecian control to build ships and attack tyre.

How stupid. Alexander WAS Greek; he was from Macedonia, part of Greece. How does a Greek conqueror summoning Greek ships constitute "many nations"? It's still just one nation.

ROFLMAO! This stuff is just so stupid and funny!

Quote:

Sorry, your argument that Nebby fulfills the MANY NATIONS is rubbish.

Sorry, you're too uneducated to realize when you've been defeated.

arnoldo · 02-12-2008, 03:34 PM

It's just sad for you base your entire argument on twisting a particular scripture without any historical evidence to back it up. Note the following verses.

Quote:

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
therefore thus says the Lord GOD, 'Behold, I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring up many nations against you, as the sea brings up its waves.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
So this is what the Almighty LORD says: I am against you, Tyre. I will bring many nations against you as the waves on the sea rise.

King James Bible
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up.

American Standard Version
therefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah, Behold, I am against thee, O Tyre, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth its waves to come up.

Bible in Basic English
For this cause the Lord has said, See, I am against you, O Tyre, and will send up a number of nations against you as the sea sends up its waves.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Therefore thus saith the Lord God: Behold I come against thee, O Tyre, and I will cause many nations to come up to thee, as the waves of the sea rise up.

Darby Bible Translation
therefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I am against thee, Tyre, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth its waves to come up.

English Revised Version
therefore thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I am against thee, O Tyre, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up.

Jewish Publication Society Tanakh
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD: behold, I am against thee, O Tyre, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth its waves to come up.

Webster's Bible Translation
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyre, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth its waves to come up.

World English Bible
therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I am against you, Tyre, and will cause many nations to come up against you, as the sea causes its waves to come up.

Apparently these are all wrong and only the following version is correct which was made in the 1800's.

Young's Literal Translation

Quote:

Therefore, thus said the Lord Jehovah: Lo, I am against thee, O Tyre, And have caused to come up against thee many nations, As the sea causeth its billows to come up.

But wait even the part where it says "many nations" is actually refering to only Nebby's army.

arnoldo · 02-12-2008, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

Just to spell this out (yet again) for the slow-of-thinking:

EVEN IF we assume that Ezekiel was referring entirely to his own future: the prophecy FAILS.

EVEN IF we assume that "they" includes Alexander: the prophecy FAILS.

EVEN IF we assume that "they" includes others in OUR future: the prophecy FAILS.

EVEN IF we assume that the mainland was part of the city of Tyre: the prophecy FAILS.

EVEN IF we assume that Nebby's 13-year siege took place on the mainland (

): the prophecy FAILS.

Both arnoldo and sugarhitman have failed to refute the numerous fatal flaws which prove this. Therefore they have lost. The rest is desperate evasion/denial/obfuscation.

But Jack what about the last part of ch 26 when God says that Tyre would be buried under the sea. Ch 27 says In the day that Tyre is ruined it will be buried in the sea. And not at the hands of a nation. ZeK listed land base weapons, the mainland city was layed in the water it was the one destroyed by the nations. Do this appear as two judgements to you or one? Or is it a contradiction? Or do all these things happen at one time?

Jack's quotes also indicated he is fixated only on the walls and streets of Tyre and not on the spiritual significance of zeke's prophecy. The prophecy was against the political/economic/religous system set up on tyre. Nebby succeded in exiling the princes of Tyre into babylon and then Nebby set up his own rulers in Tyre. Jack is also neglecting that the ultimate judgment on Tyre is reserved for the future. Note Luke: 10:13

Quote:

Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you. 15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell. 16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

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02-12-2008, 03:05 PM	#146
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Message to arnoldo: If the God of the Bible exists, he could easily have inspired many indisputable prophecies thousands of years ago. As it is, the Bible does not contain one single indisputable prophecy. Why is that? An example of an indisputable prophecy would be a prophecy that predicts when and where a natural disaster will occur, month, day, and year. If Micah had predicted that the messiah would rule a heavenly kindgom instead of an earthly kingdom like Micah misled the Jews to believe, and had predicted that the messiah would heal people, and that the messiah would be crucified, buried, and rise from the dead in three days, and that Pontius Pilate would become the Roman governor of Palestine, and that Herod would become the King of Judea, surely more Jews would have accepted Jesus. Historically, many people have accepted all kinds of outlandish religions based upon much less convincing evidence than that. Why are you so evasive? If you want to discuss these issues in another thread, just let me know which one. If you do not want to embarrass yourself, just say so and I will not ask to you discuss these issues any more.

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