reflector

Conversely, Just because you don't accept it doesn't make it not true. :grin:


Have you heard it all??? To state such would be to assume that you are infinite and eternal. Are you God? I didn't think so...you and I both have finite minds. We have a hard time grasping basic things in school or in work or in other things (not all things, just some things) because we are limited in our scope of understanding. It is for this reason that we have the Bible. It is to act as a witness of the things that God has said. It is then up to the individual person to accept or reject it. God allows you and I both to have our choice in the matter.


I said that Jesus spoke an awful lot about Hell in his teachings, so it must be a real place....are you referring to an argument supporting the doctrine of hell through Jesus' words? How about John in Revelation 20. I realize that I made a slight error in what I said about hell...hell is eventually cast into the lake of fire which is eternal...either way, it's still eternity in pride, hate and torment for the rejection of God's Son Jesus.


This is a loaded question...similar to the age-old "can God create a rock so big that He can't lift?" The answer is no, AND yes. God is omnipotent in that nothing is beyond His control. Only one thing could prevent Him from squashing us like a bug right now...that is love. You see, God cleansed the world one time a long time ago with the flood. If it had not been for the grace of God upon Noah, then humanity would have been wiped out. Love is why God shed His grace upon us. Grace mean's "unmerited favor" or "getting what you don't deserve" and is very similar to mercy which is "not getting what you do deserve." The people of Noah's day were evil since their thoughts were on evil continuously. Unfortunately, it is getting much like that today.

The heart that rejects God limits God's ability to bless him and to use him for the glory of God and for the good of mankind. So, in a different respect, the short answer is "yes" it is possible to limit God IN THIS CONTEXT. Coming back to the love, since God loves you, He allows you to exercise free will. He allows you to make your own choices. He wants us to understand that sometimes there are consequences to those choices sometimes. As I'm sure that all of us have done, we've all made a bad choice at times, especially against our parents. But our parents sometimes have to step back and let you fall so that you can learn from your mistakes and come back to them to learn from them again.


thankfully, not our definitions! We need a standard of that righteousness and holiness and justice. Hence, we have our Bible, which is the inspired Word of God. The word "kanon" or canon comes from a Greek word meaning "standard" or measurement or ruler. The canon of scripture is meant to be our measuring stick to compare the righteousness of man to the righteousness of God. All men have fallen short of the glory and righteousness of God since all have sinned. We've all broken the law which makes us law breakers. If we are law breakers, then we are guilty of breaking the law and are subject to the applicable punishment.

Part of our (humanity's) problem is that we keep looking at each other to see who's righteous. The only thing is that comparing ourselves to each other is only about as good as getting drunk and going to a graveyard to say that you're at least better off than all of these other people! There is nothing special or different about Christians EXCEPT that we have accepted the free gift of God. For us to see this, we need the Bible.


considering the above, yes, it does teach us that we should not look to ourselves, but rather consider His ways instead because He is holy and righteous and just.

Consider that this writer knows the history of his people and what they've seen. For him to reject his own national and family history would be like us rejecting George Washington was our first president. We know that GW was president because enough record was kept about it for us to know later about what happened. The same is true of Isaiah's account in understanding his national history.


To reject His Word is to reject Him. To reject His Son whom He sent of Himself is to reject the creator since the Son created all. The very fact that you just referred to Him as "your god" indicates to me that you have already rejected Him.

If you wrote a book for people 2000 years later to know about your life, would you expect people to accept it as truth or to be as skeptical as you are now? For real events that happen in your life, you would ask that people believe it when you say it is so...same thing with the Lord. Nothing different other than He wants you to accept what He's done for you!

???????

I had said that I don't want you to burn in hell either...thus indicating my will in accordance to His will...I am not just stating what I want but rather what is God's will for your life, too. He is not willing that Doug should perish but that Doug should come to repentance.

1. you've just admitted that you're fallible. You and I are on the same grounds in that we neither are infallible nor omnipotent...both sinners in need of mercy and deserving of eternal punishment. I've asked for mercy, however, whereas the agnostic or atheist says no to God and rejects His mercy and grace. Thus when justice is carried out in placing those that would reject him in hell, He is justified because of their rejection of Him.

Rom 1:19-21 says...
"because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. "

2. you said that you don't think that human beings are capable of having only true beliefs...Are you saying that it is not possible to know the truth? Perhaps we should let all the murderers out since the truth is not possible to be known by what you're saying...thankfully, you and I are not the standard of righteousness and that we by ourselves do not determine the rules of the game of Life.

3. the best that we can hope for is error reduction, not error elimination….we are almost in agreement here…The best that I hope for is forgiveness. I also look for error reduction by keeping my body under subjection and fleeing from sin whenever I see it coming. I am still a sinner, though. Even Paul admits to not having achieved sinless perfection in both Romans 7 and Phillippians 3. We will be sinners for the rest of our days. It is only at our own resurrection will those that are spiritually alive be able to put on incorruption.

Fortunately, the Gospel message of Christ is about life, not death.

Looking forward to your response….turning in now since it’s late..I’ll respond to the rest shortly…

EV

Roger Pearse

When I was working for the Spanish Inquisition (making chairs for conference centres), we used to cover BOTH!

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Doug Shaver

It would assume nothing of the kind. It would assume only that I am capable of using idiomatic English.

I have no reason but your say-so to believe that God has said anything to anybody anytime or anywhere.

I can accept or reject your say-so. Can you give me a reason to accept it?

Yes, that is what you said.

I'm afraid that is a non sequitur until you bring in a few auxiliary premises and prove them.

I am referring to a pack of assumptions you are making about the books in which various assertions are attributed to Jesus.

Yes, but it's still a good one.

Not at all. That question is logically incoherent. Mine is not.

He seems to have left a spot or two.

Does it limit his ability or his willingness?

Like he allowed Paul to exercise his free during his entire journey to Damascus?

Only sometimes? Do some of our choices have no consequences?

Is everything bad that happens to a person a consequence of a bad choice that he or she made? If I made nothing but good choices, would only good things happen to me? If not, Why not?

You say so.

They believe that God has offered a gift and that they have accepted it. I believe they are mistaken.

Stipulating that for the sake of argument, I would accept that knew something about the best that his people could do. I see no reason to suppose that his observations gave him any insight into humanity's general aptitudes.

That is my shorthand way of saying "The god that you think is real, as perhaps opposed to all the other gods that lots of other people think are real."

In order to reject him, I would have to suppose in my own mind that he was real. What I'm actually rejecting is nothing more than your unsupported assertion that he is real.

Skepticism is not the same as disbelief. Skepticism is just a presumption that any belief should be supported by a cogent argument, or that disbelief is always justified absent such an argument. I sincerely hope that people living 2,000 years from now will know better than to believe everything they read in any book just because it is written in that book.

No, I would not. I would ask them to question what I wrote the same way I question what other people write in their books.

What you are essentially claiming is that I ought to be offended if anybody fails to presume that I'm infallible. That is absurd.

I'm not rejecting his mercy or grace. If he is real, he can bestow them on me whenever he feels like it.

That is, of course, if he is omnipotent.

No. I think most of what we justifiably believe is true. I just don't think all of it is. If anybody had only true beliefs, then he or she would be infallible.

That does not address my great concern about how you interpret that message.

You suggested that God treats us the way we treat him.

reflector

Come again???

EV

Asha'man

Heh, I guess you didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition?

reflector

Asha'man,

As for the Spanish Inquisition issue, I was referring to what was meant by the chairs...

EV

Asha'man

The comfy chair and the soft pillow is one of the many tools used by the Spanish Inquisition. (At least, the Monty Python version...)

diana

Maybe you should come in again.

d

reflector

Okay, what about the Spanish Inquisition???

EV

hclincha

Nobody expects them