Freethought & Rationalism Archive

yinyang · 01-30-2008, 11:37 AM

I am not a theological scholar, so I am throwing this out to the crowd.

A friend and I had a discussion about the parable of the 10 pounds (or minas in some cases) in which it appears that jesus states that those that don't make more out of his teachings should be brought before him and killed.

Of course this friend, flat out denies that this is even in the bible, or that it is out of context somehow. I was getting this from the King James.

He said that such harsh words would'nt be in the catholic bible. I did find them however in one catholic version online, but I cant remember the exact version.

Besides the point that; it is only the original hebrew or greek or whatever, that matters, not to mention that the mere fact that there are multiple translations speaks volumes about the man-made bible.

My questions, however, are as follows:

1) does anyone have a source for what the original, non translated verse says?
2) Are there less violent versions of this parable in any, possibly "official", catholic bible?
3) Does anyone have any other interpretation, besides the literal interpretation, which just doesnt make any sense in a parable, and the one I have given?

Thanks in advance for any help.

WishboneDawn · 01-30-2008, 11:59 AM

I looked it up in my Oxford and it's not Jesus ordering the men to be killed, it's "a nobleman" in the parable he's relating. At least I think so... That it's got some violence in it shouldn't be too surprising as hyperbole is often a tool in parables and such to drive a point home.

Lógos Sokratikós · 01-30-2008, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WishboneDawn

I looked it up in my Oxford and it's not Jesus ordering the men to be killed, it's "a nobleman" in the parable he's relating. At least I think so... That it's got some violence in it shouldn't be too surprising as hyperbole is often a tool in parables and such to drive a point home.

... nearly two millenia driving that idea home in blood, steel and human barbecues, not to mention the nightmares of little boys and girls, and the servile attitudes that result from it... "Hyperboles" indeed, or maybe the parabola described by the trajectory of a bible flying out the window!

Roger Pearse · 01-30-2008, 12:19 PM

(Psychotic tone) I didn't know one of the bibles said that. Now I'll have to kill you.

WishboneDawn · 01-30-2008, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lógos Sokratikós

... nearly two millenia driving that idea home in blood, steel and human barbecues, not to mention the nightmares of little boys and girls, and the servile attitudes that result from it... "Hyperboles" indeed, or maybe the parabola described by the trajectory of a bible flying out the window!

Why was that warranted? How does it address the OP or my comment in a reasonable way?

Lógos Sokratikós · 01-30-2008, 01:07 PM

What is reasonable to you? Why do you think I was addressing the OP? Did the quote I replied to say "OP" or did it say "WishboneDawn"?

Hmmmm...

Steven Carr · 01-30-2008, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WishboneDawn

I looked it up in my Oxford and it's not Jesus ordering the men to be killed, it's "a nobleman" in the parable he's relating. At least I think so... That it's got some violence in it shouldn't be too surprising as hyperbole is often a tool in parables and such to drive a point home.

Yes. Jesus is comparing himself to the nobleman who goes away for a while, and then returns to be crowned king.

The parable is in response to a question about the kingdom of God, and Jesus then tells the story.

'While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. He said: "A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return.'

Assuming that what Jesus said is in any way relevant to the question , Jesus compares himself to a nobleman who has people killed in front of him.

WishboneDawn · 01-30-2008, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Yes. Jesus is comparing himself to the nobleman who goes away for a while, and then returns to be crowned king.

The parable is in response to a question about the kingdom of God, and Jesus then tells the story.

Assuming that what Jesus said is in any way relevant to the question , Jesus compares himself to a nobleman who has people killed in front of him.

Thanks.

I think there was a Friendly Atheist post a while ago related to this parable and interpretations of it, I think about a pastor giving his congregation money and telling them to go and increase it for the church or charity? I'll have to find that (not exactly scholarly but a sort of real-life example). Even then, that doesn't address the violent bit at the end.

Toto · 01-30-2008, 03:11 PM

The passage is Luke 19:11-28, and there is no controversy over the translation.

Quote:

The Parable of the Ten Minas

11 While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. 12 He said: "A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13 So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.[a] 'Put this money to work,' he said, 'until I come back.'

14 "But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, 'We don't want this man to be our king.'

15 "He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.

16 "The first one came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned ten more.'

17 " 'Well done, my good servant!' his master replied. 'Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.'

18 "The second came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned five more.'

19 "His master answered, 'You take charge of five cities.'

20 "Then another servant came and said, 'Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. 21 I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.'

22 "His master replied, 'I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? 23 Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?'

24 "Then he said to those standing by, 'Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.'

25 " 'Sir,' they said, 'he already has ten!'

26 "He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. 27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me."

The Triumphal Entry
28After Jesus had said this, ...

The question usually debated is, who called for his enemies to be put to death in front of him? The king in the story, or Jesus? Or is it the same person, as Jesus seems to endorse this sort of political revenge? If Jesus does not endorse this revenge killing, what is the point of the parable? Is it too mysterious for the unbeliever to understand?

NoBeliefs comments on this verse, and there is a TheologyWeb thread here , featuring our own Stephen Carr.

yinyang · 01-31-2008, 10:45 AM

Thanks for the replies. I did a quick search on a biblical translation web site, and checked ~60% of the english interpretations of Luke19:27, and they all say kill or slaughter. I think its safe to say that my friend was wrong. It is by far the consensus that kill or slaughter is the correct translation.

Which leads back to;

Quote:

Originally Posted by WishboneDawn

I looked it up in my Oxford and it's not Jesus ordering the men to be killed, it's "a nobleman" in the parable he's relating. At least I think so... That it's got some violence in it shouldn't be too surprising as hyperbole is often a tool in parables and such to drive a point home.

This is exactly the "literal" interpretation I was reffering to earlier. It may very well be that the parable is literally talking about a nobleman and not jesus, but then its just an irrelivant story about some jerkoff looking for cash.
The likelyhood of that interpretation is miniscule compared to the one, made by at least some christians (John Calvin), by the way, that jesus is the nobleman.

And using the phrase "slay them before me" as hyperbole would be highly irresponsible for a god, unless they felt it was justified. Which of course is the whole frickin problem. The bible, new testimate included, CAN be used for this justification, guilt free, because you would only be slaughtering evil sinners. :devil3::devil1::devil:

01-30-2008, 11:37 AM	#1
yinyang Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 69	The Nice Bible? I am not a theological scholar, so I am throwing this out to the crowd. A friend and I had a discussion about the parable of the 10 pounds (or minas in some cases) in which it appears that jesus states that those that don't make more out of his teachings should be brought before him and killed. Of course this friend, flat out denies that this is even in the bible, or that it is out of context somehow. I was getting this from the King James. He said that such harsh words would'nt be in the catholic bible. I did find them however in one catholic version online, but I cant remember the exact version. Besides the point that; it is only the original hebrew or greek or whatever, that matters, not to mention that the mere fact that there are multiple translations speaks volumes about the man-made bible. My questions, however, are as follows: 1) does anyone have a source for what the original, non translated verse says? 2) Are there less violent versions of this parable in any, possibly "official", catholic bible? 3) Does anyone have any other interpretation, besides the literal interpretation, which just doesnt make any sense in a parable, and the one I have given? Thanks in advance for any help.

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01-30-2008, 11:59 AM	#2
WishboneDawn Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Nova Scotia, Canada Posts: 4,287	I looked it up in my Oxford and it's not Jesus ordering the men to be killed, it's "a nobleman" in the parable he's relating. At least I think so... That it's got some violence in it shouldn't be too surprising as hyperbole is often a tool in parables and such to drive a point home.

01-30-2008, 12:19 PM	#4
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	(Psychotic tone) I didn't know one of the bibles said that. Now I'll have to kill you.

01-30-2008, 01:07 PM	#6
Lógos Sokratikós Contributor Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Virtually right here where you are Posts: 11,138	What is reasonable to you? Why do you think I was addressing the OP? Did the quote I replied to say "OP" or did it say "WishboneDawn"? Hmmmm...

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