Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Mageth · 01-24-2006, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayne Delia

As I have pointed out, it could be useful as a very good example of very bad logic.

WMD

This is true, this is true. As bullshit is useful as fuel and fertilizer, and for the occasional cowchip tossing contest.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-24-2006, 11:16 AM

Message to rhutchin: I noticed that you conveniently avoided reply to the following:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JS

The only way that skeptics can be fairly held accountable for rejecting the God of the Bible is if they know that he exists and still reject him. If God exists, if he clearly revealed himself to everyone, surely some skeptics would become Christians. Regarding skeptics who would become Christians if God clearly revealed himself to everyone, the intent of their hearts cannot be fairly questioned.

Please reply to the preceding arguments.

If the God of the Bible exists, if he clearly revealed himself to everyone, surely both he and mankind would have nothing to lose and much to gain. The number of people who would go to heaven would greatly increase, and accordingly the number of people who would go to hell would greatly decrease. Wouldn’t that be a good thing? We know for a fact that the typical human would be quite impressed with any being who demonstrated supposedly supernatural powers.

Mageth · 01-24-2006, 11:43 AM

I'm also still wondering about the tithing bit rhutchin brought up several pages back.

If "escaping eternal torment" actually costs you at least 10% of your personal income (assuming "tithe" as 10%), as rhutchin implied, how does that factor in the Pascal's Wager equations? It would seem that there was no longer nothing to lose if you're wrong in "choosing God."

rhutchin · 01-24-2006, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mageth

I'm also still wondering about the tithing bit rhutchin brought up several pages back.

If "escaping eternal torment" actually costs you at least 10% of your personal income (assuming "tithe" as 10%), as rhutchin implied, how does that factor in the Pascal's Wager equations? It would seem that there was no longer nothing to lose if you're wrong in "choosing God."

Pascal makes the point that anything that one gives up to seek God must be finite and is trivialized when compared with to a possible infinite gain. It is not that one has nothing to lose, but that which one might lose pales in significance to that which may be gained.

JamesBannon · 01-24-2006, 12:04 PM

rhutchin,
Where is the gain? All the wager says is that it is better to surrender rather than face eternal torment. I see no gain here.

Ubercat · 01-24-2006, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

I am not aware that God cares about one’s motivation for seeking Him. He merely says, “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.�? Pure self-interest may (and should) motivate all to seek God. That self-interest would eventually disappear as the person finds God.

Ok Rhutchin, so how do you explain the fact that so many of us, FOR SELF INTEREST SAKE, sought god once upon a time, were christians for a period of time (some for many years) and now we no longer are? Did we seek incorrectly? You just said our motivations don't matter. All we had to do was ask. Why didn't your god keep us saved as is promised in the bible?

-Ubercat

rhutchin · 01-24-2006, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Message to rhutchin: I noticed that you conveniently avoided reply to the following:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JS

The only way that skeptics can be fairly held accountable for rejecting the God of the Bible is if they know that he exists and still reject him. If God exists, if he clearly revealed himself to everyone, surely some skeptics would become Christians. Regarding skeptics who would become Christians if God clearly revealed himself to everyone, the intent of their hearts cannot be fairly questioned.

Please reply to the preceding arguments.

If the God of the Bible exists, if he clearly revealed himself to everyone, surely both he and mankind would have nothing to lose and much to gain. The number of people who would go to heaven would greatly increase, and accordingly the number of people who would go to hell would greatly decrease. Wouldn’t that be a good thing? We know for a fact that the typical human would be quite impressed with any being who demonstrated supposedly supernatural powers.

People are accountable to God because He has the power to hold people accountable (meaning that God determines who He will allow into heaven and nobody can get into heaven unless God allows it). People reject God by disobeying Him. God has clearly explained all this in the Bible. You have enough information to make a decision (if you have a problem, you can always defer to Pascal's Wager for a logical method to reach a rational decision about what to do).

Ubercat · 01-24-2006, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

So far as jump-starting the person to save himself, Yes.

Aren't you a calvinist? How is someone supposed to save themself? According to one of the (calvinist) churches I attended as a christian, salvation is from god, and has nothing to do with our actions.

-Ubercat

JamesBannon · 01-24-2006, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

People are accountable to God because He has the power to hold people accountable (meaning that God determines who He will allow into heaven and nobody can get into heaven unless God allows it). People reject God by disobeying Him. God has clearly explained all this in the Bible. You have enough information to make a decision (if you have a problem, you can always defer to Pascal's Wager for a logical method to reach a rational decision about what to do).

Might is right then? I think not!

rhutchin · 01-24-2006, 12:13 PM

Quote:

rhutchin
I am not aware that God cares about one’s motivation for seeking Him. He merely says, “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.�? Pure self-interest may (and should) motivate all to seek God. That self-interest would eventually disappear as the person finds God.

Ubercat
Ok Rhutchin, so how do you explain the fact that so many of us, FOR SELF INTEREST SAKE, sought god once upon a time, were christians for a period of time (some for many years) and now we no longer are? Did we seek incorrectly? You just said our motivations don't matter. All we had to do was ask. Why didn't your god keep us saved as is promised in the bible?

From Romans 1, I would conclude that you didn't like what you found and might even have been ashamed of that which the Bible says. Then, again, a lot of people have turned away from God because they got screwed by someone in a church.

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01-24-2006, 11:43 AM	#613
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	I'm also still wondering about the tithing bit rhutchin brought up several pages back. If "escaping eternal torment" actually costs you at least 10% of your personal income (assuming "tithe" as 10%), as rhutchin implied, how does that factor in the Pascal's Wager equations? It would seem that there was no longer nothing to lose if you're wrong in "choosing God."

01-24-2006, 12:04 PM	#615
JamesBannon Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Paisley, Scotland Posts: 5,819	rhutchin, Where is the gain? All the wager says is that it is better to surrender rather than face eternal torment. I see no gain here.

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