JoeWallack

Columpho: Uhm, greetings sir. My name is Inspector Columpho, special
investigator for the Sanhedrin.

Justin: Greetings Inspector. Why are you here?

Columpho: The Sanhedrin has received reports of a "dialogue" between
you and a Jew named Trypho regarding Psalm 22. I've been sent to investigate the reports. May I ask you a few questions sir?

Justin: Go right ahead Inspector.

Columpho: Thank you sir. First of all let me say that my wife really
loves your writings. Very creative. She wouldn't believe that I'm
talking to you right now. All of those analogies of wood in the
Tanakh foreshadowing the wood of the cross. Very original. Do you
think of wood a lot sir?

Justin: All the time.

Columpho: Why is that sir?

Justin: I was so inspired by Jesus' teaching on adultery that I cut
it off.

Columpho: Ouch! That's gotta hurt sir. Could you tell me sir where I might
find Trypho?

Justin: Trypho is just a "wool" man.

Columpho: A wool man sir?

Justin: You know, a wool man. A figment of my imagination. A
fictitious character. At first I wrote him as a straw man but the
obvious objections to my "they pierced" translation argument for Psalm 22 and the plain and simple support in the Tanakh for "like a lion" there were too hard to answer. So I made him into a wool man with only a vague, general type
question at the start of each subject and then agreement with me at
the end of my lecture.

Columpho: I see sir. Now, can you explain to me exactly why you
think the Tanakh predicts the piercing of Jesus' hands and feet sir?

Justin: Certainly:

"And how Christ after He was born was to escape the notice of other men until He grew to man's estate, which also came to pass, hear what was foretold regarding this. There are the following predictions:--"Unto us a child is born, and unto us a young man is given, and the government shall be upon His shoulders;" which is significant of the power of the cross, for to it, when He was crucified, He applied His shoulders, as shall be more clearly made out in the ensuing discourse. And again the same prophet Isaiah, being inspired by the prophetic Spirit, said, "I have spread out my hands to a disobedient and gainsaying people, to those who walk in a way that is not good. They now ask of me judgment, and dare to draw near to God." And again in other words, through another prophet, He says, "They pierced My hands and My feet, and for My vesture they cast lots." And indeed David, the king and prophet, who uttered these things, suffered none of them; but Jesus Christ stretched forth His hands, being crucified by the Jews speaking against Him, and denying that He was the Christ. And as the prophet spoke, they tormented Him, and set Him on the judgment-seat, and said, Judge us. And the expression, "They pierced my hands and my feet," was used in reference to the nails of the cross which were fixed in His hands and feet. And after He was crucified they cast lots upon His vesture, and they that crucified Him parted it among them. And that these things did happen, you can ascertain from the Acts of Pontius Pilate. And we will cite the prophetic utterances of another prophet, Zephaniah, to the effect that He was foretold expressly as to sit upon the foal of an ass and to enter Jerusalem. The words are these: "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass."

What do you think of my argument Inspector?

Columpho: What do I think sir? I'm no Bible scholar sir. I'm just
taking all of this down for the Sanhedrin to analyze. Did you know
sir that in order to be considered for membership in the Sanhedrin
you have to memorize the entire Tanakh? I can't even remember what I
had for breakfast this morning sir. No, I'm afraid you wouldn't be
very interested in my opinion sir.

Justin: Please Inspector, I want your laymen's opinion.

Columpho: Well sir, since you insist. I think your reasoning takes
more twists and turns than Chubby Checkers trying to make it from the
Castro to the airport to catch a red-eye that leaves in fifteen
minutes after partying all night with Tommy's Tune and Hilfiger and
having the Reverend Jim co-pilot him through the streets of
San Francisco. I also think you use fewer direct quotes from the
Tanakh than the number of black Hebrew Buddhists in Coeur d'Alene,
Idaho.

Justin: Haven't you ever heard G-d talking to you Inspector?

Columpho: Uhm, no sir. I thought I heard a voice once but it turned
out it was just my wife telling me to take out the garbage. I'd guess
from your argument sir that you are basing the "they pierced" translation primarily on scrolls from Hever Nahal which were known to elongate "yods" when they were the last letters of words so that they looked like "waws"?

Justin: Yea, that's right.

Columpho: Did you know that Abegg and Flint are Liars for Jesus?

Justin: Who?

Columpho: (Glances closer at note pad). (To himself) How'd that get there? (Scratches it out.). Sorry sir. Ahem, Did you know that the Hebrew word you translate as "they dug" means "like a lion"?

Justin: No

Columpho: Are you familiar with the Hebrew of Psalm 22?

Justin: No.

Columpho: Do you know Hebrew?

Justin: No.

Columpho: Than how do you know that the underlying Hebrew word you translate in Latin as "they pierced" means "they pierced"?

Justin: Because it agrees to the related Greek word.

Columpho: Do you agree that it was the same King David who wrote Psalm 17 and Psalm 22?

Justin: Yes.

Columpho: You don't think it's strange sir that the word "like a lion" is also used in Psalm 17 considering the parallels between Pss 17 and 22 are quite strong?

Justin: I don't see how they are probative vis-a-vis Ps 22:17c. The imagery of lions' mouths is already present in Ps 22 in 22:14 and 22:22. What demands a third mention of lions in 22:17?

Columpho: It's the combination of the prefix "like" and "lion" found in both Psalms. Note that in Psalm 22, of all the animals only the lion has the prefix. I wouldn't say that "like" or "lion" are rare words but they aren't common words either. The combination of the two in pretty similar Psalms by the same author suggests that the author liked "like a lion".

Justin: That's interesting, isn't it?

Columpho: Oh, just one more thing sir. Something that's been
bothering me. Do you know the difference between Zephaniah and Zechariah?

Justin: Who?

Columpho: Well, thank you for your time sir. I think that wraps up my
interview.

Justin: Wait a minute inspector. Don't you want to hear about how
circumcision given as a sign, that the jews might be driven away for
their evil deeds done to christ and the christians, and how sabbaths
were instituted on account of the people's sins, and not for a work
of righteousness and how the jews reject the interpretation of the
lxx., from which, moreover, they have taken away some passages and
how the jews expound these signs jejunely and feebly, and take up
their attention only with insignificant matters?

Columpho: No thank you sir. I think I've heard enough already.

Apikorus

Elisha ben Avuyah: Ma ata omer? she'dovid hamelekh katav et-tehillim?

Columpho: (?)

Elisha ben Avuyah: Ata yodea likro ivrit? Ma ata choshev al-zeh: tozti et-hamakel mehatahat.

Columpho: (?)

King David wrote the psalter? Indeed, I think we've heard enough already.

Interesting. The prefix K- (= "like") is not common, eh?

JoeWallack

Columpho:
Key ani yodea shay atah maveen ivrit tov mihoyd. There was no intent above to imply that you are anything less than fluent in Hebrew. Only to point out a good parallel to Psalm 17 that I think you missed the first time (as well as smear Justin as a Liar for Jesus).

Phlox Pyros

Oh, Spin, you little Tazmanian Devil you...

I'll let your dogmatism and rhetoric speak for itself. If you feel so strongly about the reading "like a lion my hands and feet" and it makes so much sense to you that you can't acknowledge the possibility of other readings, then I'll leave you alone with your biases.

As a couple of asides, the aleph as a mater lectionis is not rare in the DSS. With respect to the possibility of "to dig", there are hapax legomena...why deny their existence unless out of bias?

With respect to MR)$TY, just look up the lexicon entry. The mem has an effect on the word, and that is why the lexical definition of the word itself contains "at"...

Phlox Pyros

Who do others believe to be the first in ancient history to acknowledge the "pierced" reading?

Phlox Pyros

ROFL!!!

Joe, metaphorically speaking, you are supposed to be "Columpho", correct? What is Columpho's response?

Apikorus

Joe, im ata medaber ivrit, eich zeh yecholiot she'nahal hever avar le'never halach?

I agreed that Pss 17 and 22 have many similarities. You might also look at Psalm 7 and Psalm 10, which also compare wicked pursuers to a lion, and which also contain K)RYH. Regarding the association of K)RYH in 17:12 (and 7:3 and 10:9) with K)RY in 22:17, I'm not convinced. The first three instances end with a heh which is absent in 22:17. One shouldn't get overly excited about a missing heh, but given the difficulty of K)RY YDY WRGLY (spin's valuable analysis notwithstanding), I'm suspicious. It seems at least equally likely to me that a scribe corrected K)RW to K)RY, perhaps unconsciously influenced by these other instances of K)RYH. As I remarked earlier, the double mention of lions/mouths in Ps 22 as part of a chiasm also has me suspecting K)RY. I'd expect A-B-C-X-C'-B'-A' rather than A-B-C-B'-C'-B''-A', although the latter is not unattested.

JoeWallack

JW:
"Never Halach" is my little joke. The boychicks at Jews for Judaism generally discount Nahal Hever as coming from the anti-Orthodox.



Joseph

spin

Let's talk about dogmatism. Ummm, let's forget about the text and the context. Let's just insinuate what's not there for argument's sake. Doh. This agnostic pretense of yours is a sham.

Talking about rhetoric! You've got nothing up your sleave and you continue to ignore the text. As I said last post:

As to prepositions I said:

You've happily swept your "clear as day" comment about WAWs and YODs under the carpet where it belongs.

Bias, bullshit. You ignore context. And argue that because literal translations don't make sense to you that we have to pervert the text. Really meaningful.

Read what I said exactly.

More rabbits out of hats. A hapax legomenon indeed. Well, it's possible: you could pull a rabbit out of your hat. But we are trying to deal with data, not your conjecture. It is bias to insinuate your conclusions. You've been biased and rhetoric since you entered this thread. You still can't face the enormous difficulty involved in foisting the "pierced" interpretation on the verse. It is simply unrelated to the verse as it stands and bears no connection to the actually reading you've been championing (ie KRH). It's just not there.

I'll happily give you that one, so that you don't change subject and ignore the other examples of apparently missing prepositions as you did with the post I'm responding to.

You require so much more effort to convert K)RY to KRW and then to redefine the term to mean something that it doesn't, just because you don't want to deal with the text. What have you to gain with this subterfuge?


spin

JoeWallack

Columpho:
Sheh ish sawreech leeheyote yehudi beeshveal who mayveen mah matzheek.