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Old 08-17-2008, 04:06 PM   #1
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Default Is a Birth Like That Possible?

27And it came to pass in the time of her travail, that, behold, twins were in her womb.
28And it came to pass, when she travailed, that the one put out his hand: and the midwife took and bound upon his hand a scarlet thread, saying, This came out first.
29And it came to pass, as he drew back his hand, that, behold, his brother came out:
and she said, How hast thou broken forth? this breach be upon thee: therefore his name was called Pharez.
30And afterward came out his brother, that had the scarlet thread upon his hand: and his name was called Zarah.
- Genesis 38

Its seems impossible to me. And theres no evidence of a miracle here.
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Old 08-18-2008, 07:06 AM   #2
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Its seems impossible to me.
I suspect it is, too, but I think we'd need an obstetrician to tell us for sure.

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And theres no evidence of a miracle here.
There never is. But I'm guessing you mean there's no evidence that the writer intended to claim it was a miracle.

That doesn't mean he didn't think it was, but it's probably more to the point that he would not have known whether such a thing could occur naturally.

There's no telling how the story originated, but once it got started, anybody in that culture who heard it would have thought, "Sure, why not?"
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Old 08-18-2008, 08:19 AM   #3
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27And it came to pass in the time of her travail, that, behold, twins were in her womb.
28And it came to pass, when she travailed, that the one put out his hand: and the midwife took and bound upon his hand a scarlet thread, saying, This came out first.
29And it came to pass, as he drew back his hand, that, behold, his brother came out:
and she said, How hast thou broken forth? this breach be upon thee: therefore his name was called Pharez.
30And afterward came out his brother, that had the scarlet thread upon his hand: and his name was called Zarah.
- Genesis 38

Its seems impossible to me. And theres no evidence of a miracle here.
There are a couple of Hebrew puns at work here. Pharez means "to breach/to break out" and Zarah means "scarlet" (as in the color). The story is purely etiological. Also it hints at the "younger over the elder" motif found frequently in Genesis.

The odd story in Gen 38 serves the purpose of connecting Judah to David by geneology through Perez, the second son who actually came out first. It also introduces and avoids his Canaanite wife, Shua, in the lineage. Instead, our matriarchal hero is Tamar, a woman by the same name as David's daughter.

See also the list births and naming of Jacobs sons starting at Gen 29:31. Everyone of their names is attached to a pun from the story. Joseph even has two.
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Old 08-19-2008, 04:57 AM   #4
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Its seems impossible to me. And theres no evidence of a miracle here.
Baby being born in the wrong position, midwife moves them around, kid comes out? I don't think that's an impossibility.

I would expect that since birth order was such a big deal, they would take care to mark which kid was born first. But I'd expect that any cord used to indicate the elder would wait until the kid was in the basket. First one to actually be born would be the eldest.

I think that the story has some basis in fact (partial birth, repositioned, full birth), which was leveraged up into a tall tale that became the historical record.
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Old 08-19-2008, 10:50 PM   #5
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The story is purely etiological. Also it hints at the "younger over the elder" motif found frequently in Genesis.
Agreed, except I think it's more than just a 'hint'.

The 'second born is first' trope is so pervasive, I tend to think it's the entire purpose of the original Jewish scriptures - a grand piece of propaganda fashioned after familiar folk stories, to prove that Judah is gods *real* chosen nation rather than Israel.
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Old 08-21-2008, 10:34 PM   #6
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The story is purely etiological. Also it hints at the "younger over the elder" motif found frequently in Genesis.
Agreed, except I think it's more than just a 'hint'.

The 'second born is first' trope is so pervasive, I tend to think it's the entire purpose of the original Jewish scriptures - a grand piece of propaganda fashioned after familiar folk stories, to prove that Judah is gods *real* chosen nation rather than Israel.
Rebirth wherein the firstborn is reborn explains it all . . . not to be confused with evangelical hokus pokus upon its target.
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