Hooboy !!

For the benefit of clocpw2...

The Jehovah's Witnesses teach that there will basically three ways that a person can achieve "salvation".

1. Survive Armageddon, then pass the final judgement and live forever on earth as a human being.

2. Die prior to Armageddon, be resurrected, then pass the final judgement and live forever on earth as a human being.

3. You are of the annointed. Before Armageddon comes, you must die, but are resurrected to rule with Jesus in heaven. There will be exactly 144,000 of these folks.

Most other Christian religions talk of rising to heaven, with no limit on the number. Why the incongruity?

If you google "Jehovah's Witnesses 144000" you will get quite a few hits on articles discussing this. Here is my personal therory...

Numerology. I am not going to go into any real detail, but consider this. There were...

12 apostles.
12 tribes of Israel
12 signs of the zodiac... what!?

That's right. The bible is filled with pagan references and since 144,000 is a multiple of both 12 and 1000, both significant numbers in the bible, it is no accident that the number of those going to heaven is 144,000. The Witnesses go into some detail and even to a degree acknowledge the numerology, but that is not important. What is important is the origin of the numerology. What the Witnesses do not teach is that the Israelites practiced an animistic religion before settling in the land of Canaan. Other evidence of animism in the OT? The tree of life. The tree of knowledge. The burning bush. Mount Sinai. Moses' magic staff. Mana from heaven. There are many. I would recommend doing some research on animism. Do a little more research and you will find some very cool stuff specifically related to the semite people. I particularly like the Myth of Lilith. Then take into consideration the taboo of masturbation and you will see where this nonsense comes from.

The question a freethinking Jehovah's Witness should ask themselves is... why would Jehovah use two different forms of religion for his people? Why didn't he, when he forged his covenant with Abraham, establish one right way to worship and honor him? Why wait until the Israelites were wandering around in the wilderness before handing down his Law Covenant? Hell, why didn't he do this after the Flood and save some time and suffering?

vsop44

A freethinking Jehovah ' s witness is an oxymoron .
A J.W. must embrace the whole doctrine as dictated by the elders in the watchtower office in NYC or he or she is out and shunned by family and friends , and since they are discouraged from socializing outside their faith , one can imagine the distress of those who dare disagree with the hierarchy . Compared to them the high clergy of the roman catholic church are a bunch of choir boys .

sodium

I'm pretty sure it's because of the book of Revelations. I don't read a lot of JW apologetics, so I'm not sure this is their argument, but I think it must be.
So, according to Revelations, after God sets things right, some people are still on earth, some in the new Jerusalem, but not all, and some are directly serving God. 144,000 are mentioned as having the Father's name on their foreheads and being before the throne of God. These are specifically declared as having been redeemed from among men (they aren't angels). Later, we find out that God has servants by the throne of God, and these servants have the Father's name on their forehead. It seems likely that they are intended to be the same group, and therefore still number 144,000.

Hooboy !!

Sodium,

Thanks for your reply, but... my question was pretty much rhetorical. I know the answer to my own question, well... what I mean is... I know the JW answer to the question. Very well even.

I am wondering where you got your information from. One nit-pick...

The "new Jerusalem" is God's new kingdom here on earth, with Jesus and the 144,000 as the rulers. Jesus as king. This blending of heaven and earth is not really very well explained.

Gullwind

A question I have is does anyone know of any justification for the JW's usage of 607 BC for the end of the Kingdom of Judah?

Other than wanting to get 1914 after adding the 2520 years, of course.

I have been talking to a JW for a few weeks, and he apparently knows next to nothing about the background to his beliefs.

sodium

I was reading Revelations for some reason when I hit the 144,000 number. I made a note of it mainly because I remembered something from David Koresh's cult that they also believed in 144,000 who were in some way special. Later I heard of a similar belief from Jehovah's Witnesses.
I'm not sure about that. There is this, regarding the new Jerusalem.
If you interpret that to mean that God, the Lamb, and God's throne are in the new Jerusalem, then it follows that the 144,000 are also on earth, although closer to God than the rest of humanity. This still can't be heaven, though, because the new Jerusalem descends out of heaven, and after John sees a "new heaven" and "new earth". I find that passage ambiguous as to whether God is actually present. But remember this,
Jerusalem has the glory of God, but is seen descending out of heaven and from God.

andrewcriddle

IIUC 607 BC is arguably when the book of Daniel claims that Daniel and Co were taken as servants/hostages to Babylon Daniel 1:1-7.

Notes

a/ the 3rd year of Jehoiakim (reigned from 609 BC) could be anywhere from 607 to 605 BC.
b/ there are serious problems with reconciling the statements in the beginning of Daniel with other evidence Biblical and non-Biblical.

Andrew Criddle

Gullwind

Thanks, Andrew. At least there is something. The Watchtower.org site has exactly one reference to 607 BC, and it is just a statement that this is when it occurred.

While researching the JWs as a result of talking to this guy, I found out that the JWs, the Seventh Day Adventists and the Branch Davidians all started out as the same group, which splintered as a result of differing opinions on the meaning of the bible. I believe the JWs and the 7th Day group split first, and the BDs split off from the 7th Day group. This was all back in the late 1800s and early twentieth century. Charles Russell, the founder of all this, was also heavily into pyramidology. A lot of the doctrines and beliefs have a basis in that.

Thomas II

Why!... Why!... Why!
What else is there to do in the desert but to hand down covenants??
Why not after the Flood? Can you imagine the mess after the flood?
Nobody was in the mood for covenants after all the cleaning and stuff.
Now,in the desert Jehova had a captive audience...
Timing!

Hooboy !!

I used to know the answer to this question. I think it has something to do with them being carted off into exile or the temple being destroyed. I can't remember. It was all a really big deal back in the 70's when the end of the world was supposed to happen in 1975. They held on to the notion that they might have gotten their math off by a few years, but by the time 1980 rolled around, most had given up on the math. I remember there being an entire publication dedicated to explaining the math. What's funny is getting copies of those old publications is very very difficult.

That the JW you are talking to about it doesn't know anything is typical. Their education process is basically rote memorization and parroting what they hear at the Ministry School. Every now and then, you will find one that can speak with some degree of actual knowledge, but since the 80's... they have de-emphasized their numerology. They held on to it for the longest time. The last thing was the "this generation will not pass". The end of times was supposed to have started in 1914, the same year my grandmother was born. She died in 95 at the age of 82. So it took until the 90's before they were capable of letting it completely go. It has been so long since I "studied" that no doubt my undertsanding has become out of date. Seems rather odd that, what I know from 25 years ago, taught to me by God's organization on earth, is useless now-a-days. LOL One would think it would be useful forever.