juergen

I don't think mocking Jesus and mocking his followers is exactly the same thing, as they are criticized for different reasons, but you're right, it happens a lot. I would hardly say that this is persecution, although there are Christians around the world suffering real persecution.

Besides, what have Buddhist followers ever done that even closely resemblance how Christianity played itself out so many times in history? I really don't mean to judge, but I think those things influence people's opinions about Christianity.

Metal bands also write a lot about dragons, elves.

Remember that a lot of violence has been done in the name of Jesus and his church. Why is that not in the passage where Jesus says what's going to happen? I'd think he'd know.

premjan

A lot of pagans were killed by e.g. Muslims for being idolators.

juergen

Should being persecuted, tortured, and killed because of identifying oneself as a follower of any specific religion or denomination be counted as defining evidence for the truthfulness of what this religion or denomination claims to be true?

aa5874

You have two major problems, if you claim Jesus fulfilled prophecies, then you should show that he was born. If you use Matthew's account of the birth of Jesus, then I don't know if he was ever born.

Secondly, if you use Matthew's account for prophecies of Jesus, then according to biblical scholars, the author of Matthew wrote when Jesus was supposed to be in heaven, and the author of Matthew probably copied the words of Jesus from gMark or the OT

I don't think the author of Matthew ever saw Jesus because he thought Jesus rode two donkeys at the same time in order to fulfill prophecy.

Zechariah 9.9 Now the author of Matthew 21.1-7 So, according to Matthew, Jesus fulfilled prophecy by riding two donkeys at the same time, but the authors of Mark, Luke and John contradicted Matthew and claimed Jesus rode one single donkey to fulfill the very same prophecy.

Mark 11.1-7 Luke 19.29-35 John 12.14 These so-called prophecies from Jesus appears to be made up after the fact or copied from the OT out of context.

spin

In other words, you haven't got a single reason to think that Jesus said that there would be wars fought in his name.
And Jesus never said it.

What are you on?


spin

Joan of Bark

Holy Satan, Half-Life, you really need to learn some history.

Christians have persecuted non-Christians, and other Christians, far more than they have been persecuted by non-Christians. Read about the fourth crusade, or the Albigensian crusade, or the inquisition, or the wars between Catholics and protestants.

And to say that Jesus is one of the most hated religious figures in the world is so absurd as to border on clinical paranoia. I have traveled through 32 countries on six continents, and I've never heard anyone say that they hate Jesus! (Or hate Christianity, although many disagree with it). Even the muslims revere Him as the second most important prophet.

cgordon

Does it make you feel beter about your paranoia to believe lies like that?

Oh yeah, metal bands exert SO much influence.

I will concede that some Christians get mocked (Tammy Faye Bakker anyone?), but generally, if I walked out into any American public place and started railing about how stupid Christianity is, I could expect at minimum a great deal of disdain and hostility, and possibly physical violence.

Get over the paranoia. Christians are hardly persecuted in most civilized countries, in fact, great pains are usually taken NOT to offend the religious.

Now, if we examine the numbers of Christians killed for their beliefs, versus:

• the number of Christians killed by other Christians

• the number of Christians killed for reasons OTHER than their religion, such as criminal/illegal activities

• the number of non-Christians killed by Christians

Then your claim fails. Spectacularly.

There is a great deal of violence in India, between Hindus and Islamists, that is simply not reported in the West, because, well, "those people aren't all that important are they? What's Britney doing THIS week!?!?!"

You simply don't have a real clue about what's happening in the wider world do you?

Buddhists have fought with other Buddhists, Christians, Hindus, etc throughout their history. Monks have immolated themselves for the love of Buddha or to make statements.

Again, you really need to get better informed about things you're talking about. Your ignorance of the greater world and anything outside your narrow beliefs is staggering.

Fortuna

Really ? None of it applies to Jesus's time ? None of it ? Did you think that perhaps you lost some context extracting and quoting these verses ? I think so.

You convienently left out verses 1 through 3. I would like to present them, because they introduce the dialogue which you quoted. ( I wonder if the first 2 verses say anything about this applying to Jesus's time ?) Let's see shall we ?

There will not be one stone left upon another ? Stones that "shall not be thrown down" ? What do you think he is talking about there ? Is he talking about some buildings in the future ? No, he is talking about the temple buildings ! It says in verse 1 that "his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. "

OK, so, the disciples take him to see the temple buildings, Jesus says, "See those stones of those buildings ? They wont be left standing.

So, right there Jesus's is talking abut the temple buildings. Thne next in verse 3, it says ;

In ancient Jerusalem, did not the mount of olives very close to the temple mount ? Doesn't one side of it face towards the temple mount ?

My question about this verse is, when the disciples first ask, "When will these things be?", what do you suppose they mean by "these" things ? And to this they also say "AND what shall be the sign of thy coming, AND of the end of the world?

It seems to me that they are asking Jesus three things ;

1 - "When will these things be?", ("these" referring to what he said about the stones of the temple buildings, namely that "There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.")

2 - "What shall be the sign of thy coming ?"

3 - " and of the end of the world?


My question to you is, given what verse 24.1 and 2 say, and given the disciples question about it in verse 3, to recap (just in case you missed it)

"When will these things be?", ("these " unambiguously referring to what he said about the stones of the temple buildings, namely that "There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.")

Since they are specifically asking Jesus about this (when the temple stones will be thrown down) How can you say that ;

It is clear that one of their questions, and thus some of Jesus's answer [b] refers specifically to events that will and do happen a few decades after the generally accepted date of Jesus's death.

Thus are you saying that you do not think that ANY of this refers to the fate of Jeruslaem and the temple from the Roman-Jewish war of the 60s AD ?

Because, from the Context of this passage he is indeed referring to his time, and specifically the temple buildings.



In Mark's parallel version in Chapter 13, the temple / city references are stronger than here.

Also, Is it not the generally accepted theory that Matthew got this part from Mark (specifically Mark 13) ? Is not this actually one of those "proof texts", because the language(koine) is so very similiar ?

Nero's Boot

So...a billion Christians are wrong, and Jesus isn't one-third of your deity's fractured mind?

--hmmm; who knew? The Sanhedrin were right NB

Nero's Boot

....except for, y'know the billion+ Christians in charge of Europe, the Americas, and huge chunks of Russia.

--yeah. Y'know how it is NB