sugarhitman

Don't confuse judgement with sacrifice. And as I said once I will say again, God will destroy a nation or kingdom which He considers that it's sins have reached its full. This is something anarchists do not understand....God is also a God of Judgement. :wave:

makerowner

No, I'm not talking about an afterlife. Jephthah's own death would be a worse punishment than his daughter's, especially if it came as the result of some sort of disfiguring disease. A shameful death would certainly be worse than losing a child.

Alright, but I see no reason to believe this. The text says that he fulfilled his vow, and doesn't say anything about commuting the sentence. There's no explicit prohibition of human sacrifice as a whole in the OT and there is some implicit acceptance of the practice.

makerowner

I think this is an anachronistic attitude towards the text. The Rabbinical tradition is much later than Judges and has a rather different theology, so I don't think it's especially useful here. I don't think discussion of ethics was the goal, because I don't see any other examples of moral uncertainty until later works like Ecclesiastes and Job. The Deuteronomist works all seem to have a very clear idea of what's right and what's wrong and show good people prospering and evil people suffering. Jephthah is shown to prosper both before and after this event and no mention is made of a moral crisis. This story to me seems like nothing more than a practical application of Deut. 23:21-3: "When you make a vow to the LORD your God, you shall not be slack to pay it; for the LORD your God will surely require it of you, and it would be sin in you. But if you refrain from vowing, it shall be no sin in you. You shall be careful to perform what has passed your lips, for you have voluntarily vowed to the LORD your God what you have promised with your mouth."

Sheshbazzar

Really able to follow a line of reasoning aren't you?
By this inane statement, you display an absolutely appalling, even an amazing lack reading comprehension skills.

I'll leave it to others who have following this thread , whether your complaint is valid that I have at -any time, or in any post- in this thread been in a "pursuit of trying to convict God of condoning child-sacrifice...."

To spell it out for you again, very slow and very simple;
I have been the ONLY ONE posting in this thread that has taken up the position that Jephthah DID NOT offer up his daughter as a "human sacrifice". Got that?
Too difficult for you?

Whereas in several posts (#8, 17, and 19) it was clearly YOU that was arguing that Jephthah DID offer up his daughter as a "human sacrifice".
Anyone with the least bit of sense can review these posts and see that that is the truth of this matter.
So far from me being the one that would guilty of your bogus charge, It was YOU that was "trying to convict God of condoning child -sacrifice"

Another "broken irony meter", ::banghead::banghead::banghead:
of course the previous reported instances evidently flew right over your head, you never even realised how out of context and ridiculous your replies were did you?
Do you yet?

Do you ever take the time to think through anything before posting these asinine statements?

Sheshbazzar

My time is a little limited at the moment, so please understand that I am not able to enter into a protracted debate.
I was not trying to retroactively apply Rabbinical traditions, (note I said only"somewhat" similar) but it seems apparent to me that for as long as the Genesis legends have existed, men would be naturally inclined to discuss the stories, their meanings and their application to their own lives and world views, rather than just always forcing an abrupt dogmatic "that's it, and, end of discussion!". That is what I think would really be anachronistic.

I honestly believe that this type of open discussion and exchange of ideas had been going on for a very looong time before Jephthah and this particular story were ever even thought of.
Time constraints prevent me from immediately providing examples from the Torah, but basically it goes into all those "When your children shall ask what..." and "This is why..." and "This is the reason that...." type of stories.

WRT "Jephthah is shown to prosper both before and after this event and no mention is made of a moral crisis." The "moral crises" or rather the moral dilemma is for the reader or hearer of the story, how will they interpret the matter, exactly as is going on in this particular thread.
For example with "sugarhitmman" here, his moral dilemma is that on one hand he wants and professes to be a "believer", while yet on the other hand attempts to support the arguments that would betray his gawd as "condoning child-sacrifice", little wonder that he is so confused.

Salam

What does the Hebrew version say in (Judges 11:39)? I read the Arabic version and it says "he got her burnt fulfilling his vow, and she died a virgin".

sugarhitman

Sorry. Well then I applaud you in this effort, I still believe though the critics are getting a bit out of hand in trying to say the God of the Bible supports child sacrifices. The texts makes it clear that God hates this evil, but they are even trying to explain that away. :wave:

neilgodfrey

Sorry, I obviously was not clear and oblivious to how my words might appear in the middle of an ongoing discussion. I have not been a close follower of every post in this thread, and when I referenced "everyone" I should have made clear that I was speaking the rabbinic and christian apologist writings and discussions about this text for the last however many centuries -- and which are still continued today as this thread has amply testified.

My original post #24 also expressed some agreement with your arguments about the narrative being meant to provoke a moral rethink.

Sheshbazzar

Your reply seems to indicate that you have no children of your own?
While I cannot claim to speak for Jephthah, (or for any other father for that matter) As the father of two children, If I had to choose between my own life and well being, and that of my children, There would be no choice, as I'd willingly undergo and suffer anything nescessary to save them. Disfiguring disease? gladly, if it be that by my suffering, my child would be spared. Death by fire? Willingly, if it be that by my death, my child might live.
A shameful death? Surely you jest! For what could be more shameful than that a man would abandon his loved ones, his own flesh and blood to an untimely death just so that he could live?
That would be a far greater shame and sin than any that could be incurred by not keeping a rash promise made in a prayer.
An older man considers his posterity, my life is already far gone, but my children, it is my hope, have yet many years remaining before them.
And grandchildren have more need of father and mother to care for them, than of a shameful disgrace of a grandfather who willingly deprived them of a father or mother, only to add a few more miserable years to his own life.
And what, having so brought such shame upon himself, then to also expect them to care for him?
Greater love has no man, than that he would willingly lay down his life for those whom he loves; And if he is not willing to do so, then truly he is not worthy of his life.
The blood and the flesh of those tens of thousands of parents who down through the ages have given their own lives, to spare the lives of their sons and daughters, do testify of the truth of these things.
His vow would have been fully fulfilled and satisfied in the day that he handed over his daughter, and the required estimation fee, to the Priests of the Levites.

There are a lot of things that are not made explicit, nor spelled out in Books.
Where in The Books will you read of exactly how many
"fingerbreadths" are in the "cubit", or exactly how many "spans" are in a "measuring reed"?
That you cannot find every answer fully written out in a book does not mean that there are no answers to be found.
There are some things that a man cannot find, unless he seeks diligently, and he looks in the right place.
"The eye is the light of the body, but......."
Prejudice and bias can effectively blind a man to such things as he should see, and that he should know.
Sheshbazzar

DBT

The text states that Jephath did as he had vowed, that he did indeed sacrifice his daughter. There is no mention of God taking a hand to stop the act as He did with Abraham and Isaac.