FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Today at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 02-02-2008, 05:37 PM   #1
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Redlands, CA but go to School in Michigan
Posts: 39
Default Did Jepthath kill his daughter?

So I was discussing with some friends on whether the stories in the old testament pointed to an angry/vindictive god. Someone brought up the story of Jepthath from judges 11, and it intrigued me. I have heard two theories on the story, that it either refers to a literal killing of the daughter, or that he sent her away to someplace where she would never marry. I unfortunately have no skills in literary criticism or ancient hebrew and I would appreciate it if some here could enlighten me.
Tatertot is offline  
Old 02-02-2008, 05:49 PM   #2
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 1,962
Default

Looks like he killed her: "then whoever comes forth from the doors of my house to meet me, when I return victorious from the Ammonites, shall be the LORD's, and I will offer him up for a burnt offering."".
makerowner is offline  
Old 02-02-2008, 06:00 PM   #3
DBT
Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: ɹǝpunuʍop puɐן ǝɥʇ
Posts: 17,906
Default

It looks like he did;

''.... After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed.''
DBT is offline  
Old 02-02-2008, 06:09 PM   #4
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Redlands, CA but go to School in Michigan
Posts: 39
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DBT View Post
It looks like he did;

''.... After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed.''
http://misslink.org/chapel/askaminis.../jephthah.html

is an example of apologetics that jephthath didn't kill his daughter. But I was hoping to get someone with some experience with textual criticisms and/or hebrew language studies to comment.
Tatertot is offline  
Old 02-02-2008, 06:28 PM   #5
fta
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Oceania
Posts: 334
Default

The historian Josephus says (Antiquities 5:8:10) Jephthah "sacrificed his daughter as a burnt offering", but modern apologists like J.P. Holding don't like the idea of human sacrifice and argue that the Bible actually means the poor girl was merely condemned to a life of celibacy.
fta is offline  
Old 02-02-2008, 07:24 PM   #6
DBT
Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: ɹǝpunuʍop puɐן ǝɥʇ
Posts: 17,906
Default

That apologetic does not appear to be supported by the text...which describes Jephthah promising his God a burnt offering in exchange for a victory in battle, and after much hand wringing and breast beating ''did to her as he had vowed'' - as a burnt offering is not the same as vow of chastity, by not sacrificing his daughter, he would reneging on his vow to God.
DBT is offline  
Old 02-02-2008, 07:40 PM   #7
Contributor
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: MT
Posts: 10,656
Default

It is a case of modern liberal humanistic values conflicting with the authoritarian savagery of the ancients. The ancient way of Judaism was: if you make a vow to God, you must keep it. In that age and place, females were seen as the property of either the father or the husband. The unlucky greeting was seen as primarily a loss for Jephthah. And the lesson was: don't make rash promises to God. If modern apologists want to argue that the daughter was actually condemned to a life of celibacy, then let them. You don't want any fundamentalist Christian to believe that a human sacrifice can be a necessary consequence of a hasty oath.
ApostateAbe is offline  
Old 02-03-2008, 12:53 PM   #8
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: georgia
Posts: 2,726
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatertot View Post
So I was discussing with some friends on whether the stories in the old testament pointed to an angry/vindictive god. Someone brought up the story of Jepthath from judges 11, and it intrigued me. I have heard two theories on the story, that it either refers to a literal killing of the daughter, or that he sent her away to someplace where she would never marry. I unfortunately have no skills in literary criticism or ancient hebrew and I would appreciate it if some here could enlighten me.
If you read that story you will notice this event happens when Israel was corrupted through Baal worship (read ch.10). Baal worship included human sacrifice. Human sacrifice was agianst the law of Moses, but the law of Moses was largely forgotten through Baal. God used Jephath to deliver Israel but the belief that God required human sacrifice was an error on Jephath's part who like the rest of Gilead who lived amidst the Ammonites was corrupted and influence by Baal worship. :wave:
sugarhitman is offline  
Old 02-03-2008, 02:55 PM   #9
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Posts: 4,287
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostateAbe View Post
It is a case of modern liberal humanistic values conflicting with the authoritarian savagery of the ancients. The ancient way of Judaism was: if you make a vow to God, you must keep it. In that age and place, females were seen as the property of either the father or the husband. The unlucky greeting was seen as primarily a loss for Jephthah. And the lesson was: don't make rash promises to God.
This is certainly how I've understood the story. I'd never heard of the idea that she was simply sent away...I don't know how that could be wrung out of the text.
WishboneDawn is offline  
Old 02-03-2008, 02:56 PM   #10
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: On the path of knowledge
Posts: 8,889
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarhitman View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatertot View Post
So I was discussing with some friends on whether the stories in the old testament pointed to an angry/vindictive god. Someone brought up the story of Jepthath from judges 11, and it intrigued me. I have heard two theories on the story, that it either refers to a literal killing of the daughter, or that he sent her away to someplace where she would never marry. I unfortunately have no skills in literary criticism or ancient hebrew and I would appreciate it if some here could enlighten me.
If you read that story you will notice this event happens when Israel was corrupted through Baal worship (read ch.10). Baal worship included human sacrifice. Human sacrifice was agianst the law of Moses, but the law of Moses was largely forgotten through Baal. God used Jephthah to deliver Israel but the belief that God required human sacrifice was an error on Jephtha's part who like the rest of Gilead who lived amidst the Ammonites was corrupted and influence by Baal worship. :wave:
Except your theory goes against the character of Jephthath as evidenced within the texts preceding his vow, where in he is clearly identified as a devotee of Yahweh, and is Yahweh's chosen instrument.

Quote:
Jdg 11:27 Wherefore I have not sinned against thee, but thou doest me wrong to war against me: YAHWEH the Judge be judge this day between the children of Israel and the children of Ammon.

Jdg 11:29 Then the Spirit of YAHWEH came upon Jephthah, and he passed over Gilead, and Manasseh, and passed over Mizpeh of Gilead, and from Mizpeh of Gilead he passed over [unto] the children of Ammon.

Jdg 11:30 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto YAHWEH, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,

Jdg 11:32 So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and YAHWEH delivered them into his hands.
There is nothing within the text that would indicate that Jephthah had any involvement at all in the practices of Baal worship, or that he was violating any commandment of YAHWEH his elohim.
And even Hebrews 11:32 honors him, and presents him as an admirable example of living by "Faith".
He is presented in the text as an Israelite hero, A man of great faith, one who communed with YAHWEH his elohim, and upon whom "the Spirit of YAHWEH came", and under Whose "SPIRIT" and advisement he acted.

And here you are found joining in with those demeaning the character of Jephthah the servant of YAHWEH.
Tisk tisk 'Hitman, Did Yahweh raise you up, and send you forth to join the league of assassins to assassinate the character of his faithful servant Jephthah?
"YAHWEH the Judge be judge this day" whether you do his servant justice in your charge.
Sheshbazzar is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:30 PM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.