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Old 08-09-2012, 09:17 PM   #1
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Default SBL on Fraud, Nazareth

Another fascinating section with an interesting cast of characters:

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Metacriticism of Biblical Scholarship


Theme: Frauds, Pious Frauds and Biblical Origins

Stephanie Fisher, University of Nottingham, Presiding

Jim Linville, University of Lethbridge
The Royal Scam: Josiah, Joseph Smith and Believing One's own Pious Fraud
As is well known the history of religions is replete with stories of the discovery of purportedly lost or miraculously appearing books with messages from deities. This includes instances from ancient Egypt and Rome to 19th century America with the claimed discovery and translation of the book of Mormon. Some of these discovery tales have been accorded legitimacy while others have been suppressed or denounced as forgeries. Joseph Smith found an accepting audience but also incurred the accusation of fraud from many others. The historicity of the story of Josiah’s law-book and reform (2 Kings 22-23) occupies a central position in debates about the composition of much of the Hebrew Bible and the work of so-called deuteronomists. In a 2003 paper in Method and Theory in the Study of Religion, that revolves around the story of Josiah, Arthur J. Droge finds it curious that the lexica of Religious Studies tends to exclude the term “fraud” despite it occurring frequently within religious discourse. He writes that a cynic may well regard fraud as the “modus operandi religiousus.” Droge refrains from asserting that fraud should be an analytical category for religious studies, preferring to call attention to the need for critical analysis of how religious communities—and academic disciplines—construct legitimacy and illegitimacy within the socio-political contexts in which their texts are produced. Yet, the question of fraud or forgery is not easily subsumed under this larger project. This paper takes a “cynical” approach to Josiah and Joseph Smith as a thought experiment to tease out some interpretative benefits of asking directly if a given religious text is the result of a deliberate fraud or forgery and relating this to legitimizing strategies that generate religious belief.
K. L. Noll, Brandon University
That Divinely Inspired Text Walks Like a Duck! Theological Exegesis and Biblical Origins
Few researchers deny that the origin of the literature now contained in Tanak is unknown. A few hints in the content suggest earliest possible dates of composition but do not require a specific latest possible date. Linguistic elements and manuscript variants suggest a long process of unguided evolution for at least some portions of this anthology. The many discontinuities, inconsistencies, and contradictions might suggest that the entire anthology evolved through a haphazard process of supplementation that was unguided by any overarching goal or ideology. And yet, few researchers are content to view the literature as a library or archive of unrelated narratives, poems, and fragments of unknown provenance and date. This paper suggests that conventional hypotheses about the origins and evolution of the Bible have been motivated by theological need and not by the evidence.
Robert Price, Johnnie Colemon Theological Seminary
Fraud and Imposture in the New Testament
Was the phenomenon of "pious frauds" limited to the Middle Ages, or are there signs of it in the New Testament text as well? If zealous Christians could have perpetrated such hoaxes in the former, why not the latter? And is the practice carried on today in a more subtle form as Christian apologetics? One may consider parallels with the special pleadings of "sindonologists" and "scientific creationists." The motivation appears to be an allegiance to "Truth" in a material, not a formal sense, namely, in Tillich's terms, the tag "Truth" now attaches to a particular candidate for the truth, rather than to a "North Star" by which one navigates but knows one is never likely to reach. We will consider both whole writings with pseudepigraphical author-claims as well as particular elements and statements from particular NT writings. We will consider possible ways of distinguishing pious lying from midrash and emendation. There will also be attention to the work of Bart Ehrman, Gerd Lüdemann, and Joseph Wheless
René Salm, University of Oregon
The Archaeology of Nazareth: A History of Pious Fraud?
This presentation will be divided into two parts. The first part will consist of brief survey of the most significant material finds from the Nazareth basin as they relate to the existence of a settlement there at the turn of the era, namely: (a) the lack of general material evidence from c. 700 BCE to c. 100 CE; (b) the 25 CE+ dating of the earliest oil lamps at Nazareth; (c) the 50 CE+ dating of all the post-Iron Age tombs at Nazareth, which are of the kokh type; and (d) the existence of Middle Roman tombs under the Church of the Annunciation. The second part of the presentation will focus on the question of “pious fraud” as this may relate to the history of Nazareth archaeology. Three aspects will be touched upon: (a) The non-rigorous nature of “Christian archaeology” wherein priests train in seminaries and are unable to conduct a rigorous modern excavation; (b) The monopoly exercised in Nazareth by the Catholic Church, evident in Church ownership of the “Venerated Sites” where most of the digging has taken place (thus limiting access, evaluation, and publication); (c) A persistent history of error, internal contradiction, and outright fraud which continues to mar critical findings from Nazareth.
Diana Edelman, University of Sheffield, Respondent
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Old 08-10-2012, 04:22 PM   #2
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Go Rene!
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Old 08-10-2012, 05:36 PM   #3
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Go Rene!
no kidding, such poor work he has done.

he follows no valid method of anthropology or archeaology



and most of his findings are sitting on weak ground at best
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Old 08-10-2012, 05:38 PM   #4
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This is the sort of peer review and interaction with the scholarly community that historicists claim is needed.
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Old 08-10-2012, 05:49 PM   #5
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and this sums it up

http://vridar.wordpress.com/2012/03/...salms-website/


1.Which René Salm are we talking about here?

Is it René Salm, internationally renowned historian with impeccable qualifications in the relevant field, decades of academic experience and a mountain of credibility?

Or is it René Salm, amateur atheist blogger, mythicist and conspiracy theorist with no qualifications in any relevant field, who believes the film ‘Agora’ was a scrupulously accurate tour de force of historical reconstruction?

I think we know the answer!
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Old 08-10-2012, 05:50 PM   #6
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This is the sort of peer review and interaction with the scholarly community that historicists claim is needed.

false

no one with credibility ever asked for a hack job in history by unqualified people with a biased agenda
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Old 08-10-2012, 05:58 PM   #7
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http://normangeisler.net/articles/Bi...arethAMyth.htm


heres another rebuttle of rene's lackluster work
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Old 08-10-2012, 05:59 PM   #8
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and this sums it up

http://vridar.wordpress.com/2012/03/...salms-website/


1.Which René Salm are we talking about here?

Is it René Salm, internationally renowned historian with impeccable qualifications in the relevant field, decades of academic experience and a mountain of credibility?

Or is it René Salm, amateur atheist blogger, mythicist and conspiracy theorist with no qualifications in any relevant field, who believes the film ‘Agora’ was a scrupulously accurate tour de force of historical reconstruction?

I think we know the answer!
You have quoted without specific attribution a post made on a blog by someone you don't know - "Dave Burke." What are his qualifications?

Rene Salm is a Buddhist, not an atheist, and the rest is just ad hominem insult of the sort that carry no weight here.
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Old 08-10-2012, 06:06 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by outhouse View Post
http://normangeisler.net/articles/Bi...arethAMyth.htm


heres another rebuttle of rene's lackluster work
On Norman Geisler's blog? :rolling: Are you some sort of Christian apologist?

Even so, consider this "rebuttal."
Quote:
At best his arguments demonstrate that we don't know the exact location of Nazareth, and that certain archaeological reports conflict on occasion, or that some overzealous Christians have overstated their case for Nazareth at times. However, none of this demonstrates that Nazareth is a myth. . . . In fact, I don't know of any reputable archaeologist today that is dogmatically certain of the exact location of Nazareth. As for the current Nazareth Village constructed for tourists to gain an understanding of first-century life in Jesus’ hometown, it seems to offer a accurate snapshot of what Nazareth was like without making the claim that the location of the current Nazareth Village was the exact same location of Jesus’ hometown.
Notice how deftly the burden of proof is shifted? All of the ambiguity of the evidence suddenly becomes a point in his favor?

The reviewer goes on to say:

Quote:
Most notable is Salm’s unwarranted rejection of the reliability of the biblical text. There is simply no reason to reject the integrity of the Gospel records that are supported by credible eyewitnesses and thousands of early manuscripts.
:Cheeky::constern01:

Is this your source of authority?
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Old 08-10-2012, 06:14 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Toto View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by outhouse View Post
and this sums it up

http://vridar.wordpress.com/2012/03/...salms-website/


1.Which René Salm are we talking about here?

Is it René Salm, internationally renowned historian with impeccable qualifications in the relevant field, decades of academic experience and a mountain of credibility?

Or is it René Salm, amateur atheist blogger, mythicist and conspiracy theorist with no qualifications in any relevant field, who believes the film ‘Agora’ was a scrupulously accurate tour de force of historical reconstruction?

I think we know the answer!
You have quoted without specific attribution a post made on a blog by someone you don't know - "Dave Burke." What are his qualifications?

Rene Salm is a Buddhist, not an atheist, and the rest is just ad hominem insult of the sort that carry no weight here.


yet the bottom sums up rene very well.

he is not qualified any more then I am
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