Gabe the Angel

I had a few comments from another topic and the subject of Mithra came up, as I am new at this, I need some feedback. If people accept that Mithra, from documented history, had a similar story to Jesus, it follows that both must be stories, as they both cannot be true. Those of you who go down the Bible road, seem unaware of the Mithra similarity. Mithra worship was from about 2800-2100 ago.

Bede

Hi Gabe,

We have discussed this at length on these boards. You need to read this:

http://www.ceisiwrserith.com/mith/whatmithisnt.htm

It is written by a non-Christian and explains why you are completely wrong. The most striking links between Mithras and Jesus are largely urban myths spread by the internet. The others have little to do with the historical Jesus and may show influence going the other way as Roman Mithrism dates from AFTER Jesus, not before.

Hope this clears thinks up for you.

Yours

Bede

Bede's Library - faith and reason

Steven Carr

The author seems determined not to see any parallels.

He writes 'After three days he rose again. This is easily answered. Since he didn't die he couldn't have risen from the dead. He ascended into heaven. This is actually true. After killing the bull, he was raised into heaven by the Sun. Note the difference in theology between this and the ascension of Jesus, who ascends through his own power.'

So the ascension of Jesus is not paralleled by the ascencsion of Mithras , because Jesus starts with a 'J', and Mithras starts with an 'M', sorry, because Jesus ascended through his own power.

Of course, Acts says Jesus 'was taken up into Heaven', so one gets the impression that there was another power source , apart from Jesus.

I wonder what Bede thinks Mithraism took from Christianity.

As Bede's author explains 'The relevance of this to whether Christianity took things from Mithraism is this: what would have been the point? The two religions weren't competing for the same converts until Christianity was fairly well established.'

So the author does believe Mithraism was present before Christianity was 'fairly well established' . Whenever that was - the author is rather vague, and will probably only get around to saying when that was, if he is challenged on it. This 'fairly well established' is a perfect example of a goalpost with wheels already attached - ready to be moved to stop any points being scored against it.


But I'm sure, Bede will tell us the evidence that Mithraism took things from Christianity.

The author writes 'You don't have to search the web long to find quite a few sites eager to tell you the great similarities between Mithraism and Christianity.'

I wonder why the author doesn't bother to link to any of these sites in his article.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm is the first one I saw on Google when I did my search. It claims 'A similarity between Mithra and Christ struck even early observers, such as Justin, Tertullian, and other Fathers, and in recent times has been urged to prove that Christianity is but an adaptation of Mithraism, or at most the outcome of the same religious ideas and aspirations (e.g. Robertson, "Pagan Christs", 1903).'

I wonder why the Catholic Encyclopedia claims that a similarity between Mithra and Christ struck Justin, Tertullian and other Fathers.

Steven Carr

Depends what you mean by 'similar'.

All religions are similar, and all religions are different.

People in a certain age tend to come up with ideas that reflect , in some way, the spirit of the age.

Tracing influences and seeing what is 'copying' is a hopeless task.

If you want to show that the story of Jesus is just a story, it is best to start with Christianity and not with Mithraism.

Gabe the Angel

Dear Bede and Steve

I know I am shutting the gate after the horse has bolted on this one, but what is the conclusion. Are you guys saying that this is an open ended situation or is there documented historic evidence that Mithra worship was before Jesus worship, if so what was the theme to it, was it a virgin birth in a cave (spare me the stable with farm animals please) and a resurrection and not forgeting the twelve followers? OR NOT. The analysis that is linked says Mithra is made up, but does this come from a Christian conspiracy observation? or an impartial view.

Ted Hoffman

wow.

GakuseiDon

This Tektonic's article on Mithra goes through the claimed similarities. I recommend it highly. (Note: the author of the site, JP Holding, is a well-known and somewhat notorious apologist).

Vorkosigan

Yes, we know that Mithraism existed before Christianity. The other claims must be taken with a grain of salt. Plutarch says it began almost a century before Jesus.

David Ulansey has a good discussion of it
http://www.well.com/user/davidu/mithras.html

"Our earliest evidence for the Mithraic mysteries places their appearance in the middle of the first century B.C.: the historian Plutarch says that in 67 B.C. a large band of pirates based in Cilicia (a province on the southeastern coast of Asia Minor) were practicing "secret rites" of Mithras. The earliest physical remains of the cult date from around the end of the first century A.D., and Mithraism reached its height of popularity in the third century. In addition to soldiers, the cult's membership included significant numbers of bureaucrats and merchants. Women were excluded. Mithraism declined with the rise to power of Christianity, until the beginning of the fifth century, when Christianity became strong enough to exterminate by force rival religions such as Mithraism."

Read the article; it is fascinating as a piece of historical detective work, never mind the content itself. His other articles are also quite interesting as well.

Vorkosigan

CX

I am in the process, among other projects, of working on a layman's guide to the Roman Cult of Mithras. I have been corresponding with Dr. Richard Gordon a preeminent Mithraic scholar and the translator of Manfred Clauss' landmark work. In a nutshell there is virtually no connection one can make between the Roman Cult of Mithras and the Cult of Christ. There is no evidence of any borrowing in either direction. The vast majority of information available on the internet regarding Mithraism and Xianity is wrong. I recommend reading The Roman Cult of Mithras by Clauss.

It is true that Roman Mithraic ritual included a communal meal and this is largely what the early church fathers comment on. Additionally they were as much the victims of misinformation as we are today. If anyone feels the need for me to address specific points I'll do so, but there have been a number of discussions on this already.

CX

Caveat Lector

Ulansey is considered a bit of a nut by many Mithraic scholars and his theories are highly speculative.