funinspace

I have not seen one aspect of the rebuttal to the apologetic argument that the cannon was so well agreed upon back in the 4th century. What portion of the Xian world did this purported full agreement even cover? That is, what extent was the Church of Rome, dominating the Xian world. Is there any reasonable
estimates on what this percentage might have been? I'm thinking in terms of the Armenian, Ethiopian, Syrian, and Byzantine Christians. And how most of them either, do not, or did not at that time use the same cannon. Of course this essentially ignores the whole gamut of Gnostics.

Just one of those little nagging questions I have yet to see covered in a variety of writings. Or if there is a good link around that would be cool.

Thanks,
DK

capnkirk

You have asked several questions here, so let's begin with the first one. Bart Ehrman has written a very informative book (Lost Christianities) that examines the process of canonization from the late first century CE through the fourth. It was a power struggle of the first political order, with the most politically powerful ending up winner rather than the most devout, or the most historically accurate to its roots.

After Xtianity became the official religion of Rome in 380 CE by decree of Theodosius I, all detected heresies were subject to prosecution. The next few centuries represent what was probably the most monolithic period in the history of the Roman Catholic Church. Search: "Byzantium", Theodosius I, for maps showing the extent of the Roman Empire for the period. The Oxford History of Byzantium is also a good reference for the period following the final chapters of Ehrman's book.

funinspace

As usual, I am clearest only to myself...se la vi'. Question tried a second time, is what was the proportion of Xians (of all stripes) split between the emergent orthodoxy, increasingly seated in Rome, and the outlying areas that didn't quite follow the final list. A couple examples are the canon proffered by Athanasius (367AD) and/or the Synod of Hippo (393AD). I realize that the document landscape is sparse, and no exact percentages would be likely. And maybe there just really isn't enough information out there to even provide an educated guess, perhaps only a SWAG.

I recognize there was a large battle of ideas, emerging (as far as the extant documents show) toward end of the 2nd century by the likes of Origen who were doing battle with the followers of Muratorian Canon. And going thru the persecution that came in earnest towards the end of the 4th century by the orthodox Xians now in the drivers seat in Rome. Even with their power, as magnified with the Empires backing, there were elements that did not accept this exact canon. The Syrian Churches didn't accept Revelations along with a few letters. The Ethiopian Church included several texts beyond, like the 2 books of Clement. There are others but that probably gets the point across. Obviously once Xianity became the official religion, then the numbers of "who's a Xian" becomes worthless within the Roman Empire. So the meaningful comparison would have to come during the early part of the 4th century. Otherwise we would just get the number of conformists within the Empire. And maybe since the lowly followers would be clueless to the ecclesiastic battles, maybe a Church building or leadership count would be more meaningful? Not sure.

I have read quite a few books from true believers, heretics, to atheist that included canon development. So would "
The Oxford History of Byzantium" cover this specific area? I would think the information useful in refuting the silly notion by literalists that I have heard several times: That these councils et.al. were just codifying what was already generally understood and agreed upon". So if one could say beyond the fact that there were a multitude of Churches that diverged from Rome's Canon; that also "1/3" (or some real number/percent) of the Xian world was part of that disagreement. That would be useful.

Hopefully I made more sense this time.

DK

Peter Kirby

You may get use out of this site:

http://ntcanon.org/

This is a classic book:

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Resources/Bauer/

And here is a quote:

"Marcion, the founder of the Marcionites, took his cue from Cerdo and appeared before the world as a great serpent himself. And becaues he deceived a large number of people in many ways, even to this day, he became the head of a school. The sect is still to be found even now, in Rome and Italy, Egypt and Palestine, Arabia and Syria, Cyprus and the Thebaid--in Persia too, moreover, and other places. For the evil one in him has lent great strength to the deceit." (Epiphanius, Panarion 42.1.1)

best,
Peter Kirby

funinspace

Thanks, for the information. I've been to ntcanon.org before, but it's been a while. And I didn't have this thought in mind at the time. The Walter Bauer book looks interesting. I'll have to spend some time there.

Thanks again,
DK

Ehud

Check out this study:

Evangelicals and the Canon

Doctor X

If you like books, Fortress Press has handbooks on biblical scholarship.

Gamble HY. The New Testament Canon: Its Making and Meaning

this is a great summary of the process.

Sanders JA. Canon and Community: A Guide to Canonical Criticism

this scholar is an apologist, so you have to bring your shovel. However, it has great information.

--J.D.

Toto

fix your URL

Ehud

Fixed.

Guess I need more coffee.

funinspace

Dr X, thanks for the references. Yes, I like books, if only there were more free time. I think I'll stick to wader's, it's much less work. And it's easy to rinse off afterwords.

Ehud, interesting site. Evangicals that don't seam to presume as much, and appear to honestly look at the canon history. I am impressed, at least at first glance.

DK