Johnny Skeptic

So are you saying that you believe in the separation of church and state in the U.S., but not in Israel?

I challenge you to produce credible evidence that the partition of Palestine in 1948 would not have occured without God's help. The Jews were only able to estalish a Jewish state in 1948 because they had military help from other countries.

The partition of Palestine in 1948 WAS NOT a fulfillment of Bible prophecy. God promised to give ALL of the land of ancient Canaan to Abraham and his descendants. Today, Jews do not occupy ALL of the land of ancient Canaan.

Regarding the Old Testament claim that God's protection of Jews was conditional upon good behavior, what about Jewish babies? Was it fair for Jewish babies to have to suffer because of the disobedience of their parents?

Was it fair for God to force animals to kill each other after Adam and Eve at the forbidden fruit?

Johnny Skeptic

But everyone needs to survive, not just Jews. What about the Canaanites who the Jews stole Canaan from? Why should Jews have gotten preferential treatment from God? Why did God choose the Jews to be his chosen people? Why did God turn his back on the rest of the people in the world during Old Testament times?

Sheshonq

Nonsense. Are you saying that the Hebrew people had no culture or religious identity during the time of Joseph, vizier to the Pharaoh?

Why? If it's a divine book, then God is guaranteeing its accuracy regardless of the circumstances under which it is written. It could be written while riding on the back of a speeding camel fleeing from thieves.

Moreover, the Hebrews didn't have a stable homeland for most of their history, yet the OT books got written anyhow. So your initial presumption doesn't hold much water.

Again, why?

Johnny Skeptic

That is false. God had no need of depending upon puny humans to write the Bible. If he exists, he would have written it himself. More importantly, he would have DISTRIBUTED it himself instead of mimicking the way that news about him would have been spread if he did not exist, and allowing millions of people to die without hearing the Gospel message.

If Old Testament Jews invented the God of the Bible, that explains why news of the God of the Bible started in a single place instead of simultaneously all over the world. False religions by necessity must start in only one place. If a God existed who wanted to communicate with humans partly in tangible ways, it is logical to assume that he would start simultaneously start a religions all over the world at the same time. If instead of one only begotten Son of God there had been one thousand only begotten sons of God who lived in many parts of the world at the same time, and performed many miracles, and rose from the dead on the same day, and appeared to hundreds of people, the Christian church would surely be much larger than it is today.

Of course, no false religion could ever produce evidence like that.

sugarhitman

So you are saying that Israel did not encounter resistence from Britian, and the Arabs? Our discussion is not about the Balfour declaration. It is about whether the Restoration of Israel is a self- fulfilling prophecy or not. A self-fulfilling prophecy is one in which you control the events and encounter little or no resistence. The Jews encountered much resistence, this is very well known, and your attempts to deny this is just that....DENIAL. And so what if Israel had some sympathy from other countries and people. God works this way as well. Remember He fortold in Isaiah that he would raise up Cyrus to prepare the way for the restoration of Israel. There is more than one way for God to accomplish his goals.....and it does not always include divine miracles. :wave:

Johnny Skeptic

Consider the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-fulfilling_prophecy

The bottom line is "a true prophetic statement — a prophecy declared as truth when it is not — may sufficiently influence people, either through fear or logical confusion, so that their reactions ultimately fulfill the false prophecy." That contradicts your claim that "A self-fulfilling prophecy is one in which you control the events and encounter little or no resistence." Little of no resistance IS NOT a requirement of a self-fulling prophecy. If you have evidence to the contrary, please post your sources.

Belief in the Bible is the reason why a Jewish state was established in Palestine in 1948. God had nothing to do with it. If the Axis powers had won the Second World War instead of the Allies, the state of Israel in Palestine would not have been established. The U.S. emerged from the Second World War as the king of the world. At that time, the percentage of fundamentalist Christians in the U.S. was higher than it is now. Because of the Bible, it is quite natural that the U.S. approved of the Balfour Declaration.

What you need is reasonable proof the the state of Israel would not have been established in 1948 without God's help. You also need reasonable proof that Old Testament prophecies that mention Israel were divinely inspired.

Contrary to what you claimed, Israel has not been restored. God promised Abraham and his descendants ALL of the land of ancient Canaan. Today, Jews do not occupy ALL of the land of ancient Canaan.

Since you have never come up with any good reasons why God would want to predict the future, you lose hands down. Without sensible motives why God would want to predict the future, there are not any good reasons for anyone to believe that he predicts the future. If God wanted people to believe that he is able to predict the future, all that would have needed to do was predict when and where some natural disasters would occur. By "when," I mean month, day, and year.

Please be advised that I frequently will repost any parts of this post that you refuse to reply whether you reply to this post or not. That way, undecided readers will still be able to read my arguments.

arnoldo

Sorry, I didn't want to get into quoting bible verses but the general idea comes from the following verses:

Zechariah 12:10. . . and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced. . .
Zechariah 13:6 . .If someone asks him, 'What are these wounds on your body ?' he will answer, 'The wounds I was given at the house of my friends.'

Again the general idea is that nothing short of the second coming of Yeshua is what is going to save the nation of Israel from being wiped off the face of the earth.

Toto

Jews for Judaism on Zech 12:10

arnoldo

God basically choose the Jews because Abraham obeyed. Apparently Abraham heard God while he lived in Iraq and he left his homeland and sojourned to the land of Israel. The nation of Israel was a sign to all of the other nations during old testament times however Israel frequently stumbled and was conquered by other nations. In time God himself became a man and began to preach that the Kindgom of God is at hand. Through the Messiah people of all nations, tribes, and tongues can be saved.

Sheshonq

Britain was instrumental in setting up modern-day Israel in the first place. Is "helping to create" somehow your definition of "resistance"?

Yep. So? That does not support your claim that Israel's existence was in jeopardy or threatened by the Arabs.

Oh, really? Then why did you bring it up? That was you, not me.

There is no requirement that a self-fulfilling prophecy encounter no resistance. You should stop making things up - especially when you don't know what you're talking about.

Hardly. My posts are the informed opinion of someone who has studied this for over 20 years.

"Sympathy"?

Britain carved out territory and gave it to them. Hardly "sympathy", more like "here are the keys to my house, my car, and my business. Help yourself."

You are either (a) ignorant of the history of this region of the world or (b) delibreately twisting the history. Given your track record, it's hard to decide which one is more likely.