dog-on

NT writers quoted from the Septuagint, being that they were non-Hebrew and all...

As far as I know, mythological figures actually do not "quote" anything...

Ben C Smith

True. But Jesus might have.

Ben.

dog-on

If, of course, he wasn't mythological and a Greek, to boot!

gstafleu

Yes, he might have. But just as a matter of curiosity, how likely is it that a Jesus as we see him presented in the gospels--even if it is only a minimal one--would have quoted from the Greek LXX? I know Hellenization was an ongoing issue, but is Jesus usually seen as a Hellenized Jew? Clearly Paul and the gospel authors were Hellenized, at least to the extent that they wrote in Greek. But was their putative subject?

Gerard Stafleu

Ben C Smith

Not very likely, IMVHO.

I myself am not given to the claim that Jesus uttered every word attributed to him in the gospels, so I am not defending any given scriptural quotation placed on his lips, but I do not think the LXX quotations impinge on historicity. If an author knew that Jesus quoted the OT in Hebrew or in Aramaic, and he had to render this into Greek for the gospel he was writing, using the LXX version would be a very natural thing. Not everybody would translate from scratch if an existing translation was sitting there just begging to be cribbed from.

I do this on my website, for example. I try to attribute the (usually out of copyright) translation to its source, of course (which an ancient would not have been prone to do), and I sometimes modify it as I see fit, but I do not feel compelled to make each and every translation of each and every church father my own when the ANF series is sitting there to be used.

Ben.

gstafleu

Agreed, this issue is probably fairly neutral when it comes to historicity. It really only throws some more glowing embers onto the smoldering heap of anti-literalist evidence. But since we are there in a situation of severe over-kill already, that is at best of marginal interest.

Gerard Stafleu

dog-on

Also works when trying to create dialog from scratch, imo...

Jeffrey Gibson

And I have often wondered why people such as yourself have never taken the time, or made the minimal effort required by looking at the Loci Citati vel Allegati -- the list of OT and Apocrypha/Pseudepigrapha NT quotations at the back of critical editions of the GNT (are you even aware that there are such things in critical editions of the GNT?) - and comparing them to the text(s) of the LXX, to find out.

Jeffrey

aa5874

But, this is all speculation, it cannot be assumed to be true.

It is more likely that the authors were just making stuff up.

For example, the author of gMatthew wrote that Mary was found with child of the Holy Ghost and that this Holy Ghost conception is fulfilled prophecy found in Isaiah 7.14. Clearly, Matthew 1.23 appears to be similar to Isaiah 7.14 in the LXX, but it is just a text taking out of context.

There are many examples of these out of context passages which appear to be from the LXX, that are called fulfilled prophecies that are clearly erroneous or likely to be.

The evidence points to the authors just making stuff up about a character called Jesus and using the LXX to put words in his mouth.

Jeffrey Gibson

Nowhere, let alone in Mt. 1:23, does the author of GMatthew speak of Mary being found to be with a child that is of a ghost of any kind, let alone a holy one.

What you'd see if you ever took the time to do some readining on Matt. 1:23, is that what the author of GMatthew thinks is fulfilled is the prophecy in Is. 7:14 that the God of Israel will be with his people.

In any case, the OP was whether, when Jesus is presented as quoting from the OT, the quote comes from the MT or the LXX.

So, as usual, your remarks are as irrelevant as they are uninformed.

Jeffrey