Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Johnny Skeptic · 08-01-2010, 09:25 AM

Consider the following from the Abrahamic Religions forum. David Henson is a Christian, and believes that the Exodus and the Ten Plagues in Egypt happened. Arnoldo, of course, also believes that they happened.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Henson

I don't know what kind of archaeological evidence would one expect to find of a nomad tribe 3,500 years ago.

That the waters of the Nile were used for bathing, that Egyptians allowed foreigners to live in Egypt but were kept separate, bricks were made with and without straw, that Egyptian names and titles were correctly used by the Exodus account and that Pharaohs led their charioteers into battle at that time are all archaeological evidence in support of the account.

Even the archaeological evidence of the Egyptians to withhold or even remove any historical reference which were objectionable to new dynasties is explanation why it was never mentioned in Egyptian historical records.

The Egyptian priest and historian Manetho was quoted by Josephus that the ancestors of the Jews "entered Egypt in their myriads" and were later driven out and founded Judaea, building Jerusalem and its temple. (Against Apion, I, 228 (26)). This is usually discounted as unhistorical but Josephus also mentions Chaeremon, and Lysimachus and other Egyptian historians who have Moses driven out of Egypt. (Against Apion, I, 228, 238 (26) / 288, 290 (32) / 299 (33) / 304-311 (34).

I do not understand what David Henson meant. First he said "I don't know what kind of archaeological evidence would one expect to find of a nomad tribe 3,500 years ago," and then he mentions Josephus and other sources as evidence of "a nomad tribe 3,500 years ago."

Since many is not most readers do not have some of the writings that David Henson mentioned, I request that he quote his sources. What did Josephus say? What "other Egyptian historians"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

But no expert except for a conservative Christian expert, or a conservative Jew expert would accept what you [arnoldo] posted as reasonable proof that the biblical accounts of the Exodus and the Ten Plagues are true. You are merely preaching to the choir.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Henson

Most of those experts would conclude that Adam was allegorical but what kind of allegorical character would have been listed in genealogies, especially as having children? Not a very careful examination of the text, is it?

If the people who are mentioned in Bible genealogies were real people, so what? Many ancient texts blend probably real people with myths, and with innocent but inaccurate revelations that were presumed by the writers to represent factual information.

King Nebuchadnezzar probably existed, but there are not any good reasons for people to believe that he ate grass with cows like the Bible says he did, and there are not any good reasons for people to believe that the story of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego is true.

Arnoldo mentioned a useless link at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merneptah_Stele that offers no support at all for the historicity of the Exodus and the Ten Plagues.

temporalillusion · 08-01-2010, 09:39 AM

I'll quote what I wrote there:

Quote:

Originally Posted by temporalillusion

You don't even have to get to the fleeing and the wandering to arrive at a serious problem, according to the scriptures god killed all the cattle twice.. and even killed some of them 3 times!

Step 1: Kill the cattle.

the hand of the LORD is upon thy cattle which is in the field, upon the horses, upon the asses, upon the camels, upon the oxen, and upon the sheep: there shall be a very grievous murrain ... And the LORD did that thing on the morrow, and all the cattle of Egypt died. (Exodus 9:3-6)

Step 2: Kill the cattle again!

And the hail smote throughout all the land of Egypt all that was in the field, both man and beast. (Exodus 9:25)

Step 3: Profit! Or kill the already twice killed firstborn cattle!

at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. (Exodus 12:29)

Davka · 08-01-2010, 10:15 AM

I'll see your quote and raise you a response:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davka

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Henson

I don't know what kind of archaeological evidence would one expect to find of a nomad tribe 3,500 years ago?

Plenty.

Archaeology of the Neolithic Levant and Nomadic Pastoralism

Archaeology and the Shasu Nomads

New find in Badia illuminates ancient bedouin life

The Archaeology of Mobility: Nomads in the Old and in the New World

Lengthy, candid conversations with Biblical Archaeologists during the time that I lived in Israel convinced me that the Exodus story simply could not be true. The only explanation I ever heard from a Biblical archaeologist for the total lack of evidence for a Biblical Exodus was that possibly the place names were somehow mixed up, and that the Hebrews had crossed over into the Arabian Peninsula rather than the Sinai.

6,000 year old temporary Bedouin camps have been excavated in the Sinai. These were camps with a few hundred inhabitants. Yet there is not a single scrap of archaeological evidence for a million - or even a thousand - Hebrew nomads wandering in the Sinai for 40 years.

Be very careful studying archaeology and the Bible. The truth is not something you will readily embrace, because it leaves no room for your mythology.

*cough*

Davka · 08-05-2010, 08:18 PM

I love the way these threads completely die as soon as they get down to the nitty-gritty.

And the way uber-confident believers fade quietly away when they can no longer answer the evidence presented.

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08-05-2010, 08:18 PM	#4
Davka Contributor Join Date: May 2010 Location: Babble Belt Posts: 20,748	I love the way these threads completely die as soon as they get down to the nitty-gritty. And the way uber-confident believers fade quietly away when they can no longer answer the evidence presented.

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