Freethought & Rationalism Archive

DevilsAdvocate · 03-01-2008, 08:00 PM

What is the concept of logos you working with?

From what I have read, the concept of logos as understood by the stoics is not communicated in hebrew, and greek translations can confuse the terminology.

schilling.klaus · 03-01-2008, 11:14 PM

Already Plutarch identified Osiris as the Logos, and Jesus is the same as Plutarch's Osiris, i.e. The Logos

The canonical Jesus is a vulgar degeneration of this,
as for populist reasons, the NT Jesus was forced into fulfilling Scripture,
and no pagan deity has such a backup. This made the NT Jesus useful for political purposes.

Klaus Schilling

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-02-2008, 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schilling.klaus

Already Plutarch identified Osiris as the Logos

Citation, please. Where exactly in Plutarch can this identification be found?

Jeffrey

Clivedurdle · 03-02-2008, 05:51 AM

logos

Quote:

n Greek philosophy and theology, the divine reason implicit in the cosmos, ordering it and giving it form and meaning. Though the concept defined by the term logos is found in Greek, Indian, Egyptian, and Persian philosophical and theological systems, it became particularly significant in Christian writings and doctrines to describe or define the role of Jesus Christ as the principle of God active in the creation and the continuous structuring of the cosmos and in revealing the divine plan of salvation to man. It thus underlies the basic Christian doctrine of the preexistence of Jesus.

The idea of the logos in Greek thought harks back at least to the 6th-century-BC philosopher Heracleitus, who discerned in the cosmic process a logos analogous to the reasoning power in man. Later, the Stoics, philosophers who followed the teachings of the thinker Zeno of Citium (4th–3rd century BC), defined the logos as an active rational and spiritual principle that permeated all reality. They called the logos providence, nature, god, and the soul of the universe, which is composed of many seminal logoi that are contained in the universal logos. Philo of Alexandria, a 1st-century-AD Jewish philosopher, taught that the logos was the intermediary between God and the cosmos, being both the agent of creation and the agent through which the human mind can apprehend and comprehend God. According to Philo and the Middle Platonists, philosophers who interpreted in religious terms the teachings of the 4th-century-BC Greek master philosopher Plato, the logos was both immanent in the world and at the same time the transcendent divine mind.

In the first chapter of The Gospel According to John, Jesus Christ is identified as “the Word” (Greek logos) incarnated, or made flesh. This identification of Jesus with the logos is based on Old Testament concepts of revelation, such as occurs in the frequently used phrase “the Word of the Lord”—which connoted ideas of God’s activity and power—and the Jewish view that Wisdom is the divine agent that draws man to God and is identified with the word of God. The author of The Gospel According to John used this philosophical expression, which easily would be recognizable to readers in the Hellenistic (Greek cultural) world, to emphasize the redemptive character of the person of Christ, whom the author describes as “the way, and the truth, and the life.”

I understand this as explaining completely the phenomena of xianity, and as clear evidence of Jesus as mythical. It is normal behaviour to anthromorphise the universe, and an evolutionary process is discernable, logos, sophia and Jesus the Christ.

schilling.klaus · 03-02-2008, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Citation, please. Where exactly in Plutarch can this identification be found?

On Isis and Osiris, LXI

Klaus Schilling

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-02-2008, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schilling.klaus

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Citation, please. Where exactly in Plutarch can this identification be found?

On Isis and Osiris, LXI

Klaus Schilling

While the word λόγος appears in this passage, as far as I can see there is no identification of the Logos with Osirus such as you claim.

Perhaps you will show me with specific reference to the wording and the syntax of the Greek of De Iside et Osiride 375, section E (i.e., 61) how the identification that you claim is there really is there.

ὁ δ' Οσιρις ἐκ τοῦ ὁσίου <καὶ> ἱεροῦ τοὔνομα μεμιγμένον ἔσχηκεῥ κοινὸς γάρ ἐστι τῶν ἐν οὐρανῷ καὶ τῶν ἐν Αιδου λόγους, ὧν τ|μὲν ἱερ| τ| δ' ὅσια τοῖς παλαιοῖς <ἔθος> ἦν προσαγορεύειν. ὁ δ' ἀναφαίνων τ| οὐράνια καὶ τῶν ἄνω φερομένων λόγος Ανουβις ἔστιν ὅτε καὶ Ἑρμάνουβις ὀνομά ζεται, τὸ μὲν ὡς τοῖς ἄνω τὸ δ' ὡς τοῖς κάτω προσήκων. διὸ καὶ θύουσιν αὐτῷ τὸ μὲν λευκὸν ἀλεκτρυόνα, τὸ δὲ κροκίαν, τ| μὲν εἰλικρινῆ καὶ φανά, τ| δὲ μικτ|καὶ ποικίλα νομίζοντες.

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-02-2008, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by premjan

Mithras, apparently.

Quote:

Christ and Mithra were both referred to directly as the "Logos" (Larson 184).

http://www.crystalinks.com/mithraism.html

Ummm, could we please have the primary evidence that shows Larson's claim re Mithras to be true?

Jeffrey

premjan · 03-02-2008, 01:24 PM

Quote:

We have several titles here, and yea, though I searched through the works of Mithraic scholars, I found none of these applied to Mithra, other than the role of mediator (not, though, in the sense of a mediator between God and man because of sin, but as a mediator between Zoroaster's good and evil gods; we have seen the "sun" identification, but never that title) -- not even the new ones were ever listed by the Mithraic scholars. There is a reference to a "Logos" that was taught to the Mithraic initiates [MS.206](in the Roman evidence, which is again, significantly after the establishment of Christianity), but let it be remembered that "logos" means "word" and goes back earlier in Judaism to Philo -- Christians borrowed the idea from Philo, perhaps, or from the general background of the word, but not from Mithraism.

http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/mithra.html

andrewcriddle · 03-03-2008, 02:03 AM

According to these articles http://www.sacred-texts.com/asia/odpr/odpr09.htm http://www.muslimhope.com/Druze.htm

The Druze leader Muhammad ibn Wahb al-Qurashi is identified with Kalima the word or cosmic utterance which appears to be an echo of the Logos.

NB I have not studied the Druze religion and cannot vouch for the accuracy of these claims.

Andrew Criddle

andrewcriddle · 03-03-2008, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by premjan

Quote:

We have several titles here, and yea, though I searched through the works of Mithraic scholars, I found none of these applied to Mithra, other than the role of mediator (not, though, in the sense of a mediator between God and man because of sin, but as a mediator between Zoroaster's good and evil gods; we have seen the "sun" identification, but never that title) -- not even the new ones were ever listed by the Mithraic scholars. There is a reference to a "Logos" that was taught to the Mithraic initiates [MS.206](in the Roman evidence, which is again, significantly after the establishment of Christianity), but let it be remembered that "logos" means "word" and goes back earlier in Judaism to Philo -- Christians borrowed the idea from Philo, perhaps, or from the general background of the word, but not from Mithraism.

http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/mithra.html

MS.206 (Mithraic Studies edited by Hinnells p 206) is from a posthumously published article by Franz Cumont, edited by ED Francis. The relevant portion reads

Quote:

.....the Dura Mithraeum is thus of exceptional interest. It offers proof that the hIEROS LOGOS which was taught to the initiates and whose episodes they learned to perceive - illustrations from the 'Sacred Book' which could both instruct and edify the illiterate - differed in no important respect at the eastern limit of the Roman empire from the revelation of the same mysteries in the spelaea of the West.

a/ Cumont is clearly talking of some sacred text teaching initiates about the true meaning of Mithraism. This has nothing to do with identifying Mithras with the Logos.
b/ There is a long note by Francis explaining that Cumont's persistent belief in a Mithraic "holy book" seems to be without any real evidence in its favour.

Andrew Criddle

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03-01-2008, 08:00 PM	#11
DevilsAdvocate Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 170	What is the concept of logos you working with? From what I have read, the concept of logos as understood by the stoics is not communicated in hebrew, and greek translations can confuse the terminology.

03-01-2008, 11:14 PM	#12
schilling.klaus Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Germany Posts: 267	Already Plutarch identified Osiris as the Logos, and Jesus is the same as Plutarch's Osiris, i.e. The Logos The canonical Jesus is a vulgar degeneration of this, as for populist reasons, the NT Jesus was forced into fulfilling Scripture, and no pagan deity has such a backup. This made the NT Jesus useful for political purposes. Klaus Schilling

03-03-2008, 02:03 AM	#19
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	According to these articles http://www.sacred-texts.com/asia/odpr/odpr09.htm http://www.muslimhope.com/Druze.htm The Druze leader Muhammad ibn Wahb al-Qurashi is identified with Kalima the word or cosmic utterance which appears to be an echo of the Logos. NB I have not studied the Druze religion and cannot vouch for the accuracy of these claims. Andrew Criddle

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