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Riverwind · 06-11-2007, 08:50 PM

Ok. Now that I've got your attention. We've all heard that this is the "tradition". That "tradition" had to come from somewhere.

Does anyone know the sources of the "legends" of the martyrdom of the disciples?

Paul - Apocryphal Acts of Paul...died at the hands of Nero...

Anyone else?

Kosh · 06-11-2007, 09:37 PM

A quick google search

Toto · 06-11-2007, 11:28 PM

Martyrs by Stephen Carr

Quote:

Not even the early Christians claimed that all the disciples were martyred. . .

Gracchus · 06-11-2007, 11:42 PM

All of the disciples died for Jesus! WOW! That's why he has no followers left!

:bulb:

Chris Weimer · 06-11-2007, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Martyrs by Stephen Carr

This caught my eye.

Quote:

Consider what Josephus, a Pharisee, has just written.

Josephus was certainly not a Pharisee.

Yet another little gem:

Quote:

Perhaps this explains why the author of Hebrews could tell his Christian readers that 'In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.' (Hebrews 12:4) He goes on to remind his readers that they should 'Remember those in prison as if they were your fellow-prisoners ,and those who are ill-treated as if you yourselves were suffering.' (Hebrews 13:3). Why does he say 'as if they were your fellow prisoners'? Surely if there were Christians in prisons, there would be no 'as if' about it - they actually would be their fellow-prisoners. Why does he not say 'Remember our Christian brothers in prison'?

This is a poor reading. Only if the author of Hebrews were writing to Christians in prison would then it should be read as "remember our [fellow prisoners]" (why does Steve Carr change out the Hebrews wording for his own?).

Finally, by the same analogy, since he repeats the formula in the very next phrase, no Christians were sick either. They weren't sick and they weren't in jail. Unless we actually take what the author of Hebrews was say literally. Then Christians are both sick and in jail.

Chris Weimer · 06-12-2007, 12:02 AM

I could go on:

Quote:

Perhaps this is why the Christian apologist, Origen, writing in Contra Cells Book 3 Chapter 8, said that there had been very few Christian martyrs.
"For in order to remind others, that by seeing a few engaged in a struggle for their religion, they also might be better fitted to despise death, some, on special occasions, and these individuals who can be easily numbered, have endured death for the sake of Christianity, --God not permitting the whole nation to be exterminated, but desiring that it should continue, and that the whole world should be filled with this salutary and religious doctrine."

This was in the 240s AD. Even after two centuries of "persecution", Origen could still say that Christian martyrs were "easily numbered".

First of all, it's Contra Celsus, not Contra Cells. And furthermore, the Roman authors of Pliny and Tacitus allude to something different altogether, as does a more careful reading of Origen's statements. I provide the whole thing for the benefit:

Quote:

But with regard to the Christians, because they were taught not to avenge themselves upon their enemies (and have thus observed laws of a mild and philanthropic character); and because they would not, although able, have made war even if they had received authority to do so,—they have obtained this reward from God, that He has always warred in their behalf, and on certain occasions has restrained those who rose up against them and desired to destroy them. For in order to remind others, that by seeing a few engaged in a struggle for their religion, they also might be better fitted to despise death, some, on special occasions, and these individuals who can be easily numbered, have endured death for the sake of Christianity,—God not permitting the whole nation to be exterminated, but desiring that it should continue, and that the whole world should be filled with this salutary and religious doctrine. And again, on the other hand, that those who were of weaker minds might recover their courage and rise superior to the thought of death, God interposed His providence on behalf of believers, dispersing by an act of His will alone all the conspiracies formed against them; so that neither kings, nor rulers, nor the populace, might be able to rage against them beyond a certain point. Such, then, is our answer to the assertions of Celsus, "that a revolt was the original commencement of the ancient Jewish state, and subsequently of Christianity."

Origen is talking about the charge by Celsus that the Christians began by revolting, thus a rather dangerous charge that Christians were violent insurrectionists. Celsus minimizes this by saying that the number of those suffering death on behalf of Christianity is not to the point where the Romans have wiped all of them out. Yes, they can be numbered - he doesn't specify that it can be numbered on the hand. He doesn't give exact figures. He's purposefully minimizing those who have died so that Christians don't seem like a cult which should be exterminated.

Chris Weimer · 06-12-2007, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gracchus

All of the disciples died for Jesus! WOW! That's why he has no followers left!

:bulb:

You assume then that his disciples were his only followers, and they're still living today?

I mean, yes all of his disciples did die eventually, what does it matter if they died for him or if they died of syphilis?

BALDUCCI · 06-12-2007, 06:48 AM

Maybe someone can translate the phrase "died for Jesus" into English. I dont know what it means.

How would they know that they "died for Jesus" ? How would they know that they werent misled in thinking they "died for Jesus"..maybe they died for Goofy, and thought they died for Jesus. How would we know that they "died for Jesus" ?

Doug Shaver · 06-12-2007, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riverwind

We've all heard that this is the "tradition".

Tradition is what it is. That is why we've all heard it. If you have evidence to the contrary, let's see it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riverwind

That "tradition" had to come from somewhere.

Yep. The same place urban legends come from.

JoeWallack · 06-12-2007, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riverwind

Ok. Now that I've got your attention. We've all heard that this is the "tradition". That "tradition" had to come from somewhere.

Does anyone know the sources of the "legends" of the martyrdom of the disciples?

Paul - Apocryphal Acts of Paul...died at the hands of Nero...

Anyone else?

JW:
In an Irony that I think the author of "Mark" would really appreciate, per the Gospels (at least the Canonical ones) the only Disciple to die for Jesus was Judas.

Joseph

Suicide. The sincerest form of self-criticism.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

06-11-2007, 08:50 PM	#1
Riverwind Banned Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Allen, Tx Posts: 604	All of the disciples died for Jesus Ok. Now that I've got your attention. We've all heard that this is the "tradition". That "tradition" had to come from somewhere. Does anyone know the sources of the "legends" of the martyrdom of the disciples? Paul - Apocryphal Acts of Paul...died at the hands of Nero... Anyone else?

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06-11-2007, 09:37 PM	#2
Kosh Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Orions Belt Posts: 3,911	A quick google search

06-11-2007, 11:42 PM	#4
Gracchus Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: California Posts: 359	All of the disciples died for Jesus! WOW! That's why he has no followers left! :bulb:

06-12-2007, 06:48 AM	#8
BALDUCCI Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: scotland Posts: 365	Maybe someone can translate the phrase "died for Jesus" into English. I dont know what it means. How would they know that they "died for Jesus" ? How would they know that they werent misled in thinking they "died for Jesus"..maybe they died for Goofy, and thought they died for Jesus. How would we know that they "died for Jesus" ?

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