Freethought & Rationalism Archive

storytime · 10-17-2009, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Jesus was a jew.

So, anyone who writes a biography of an American must be from the USA.

How absurd.

And further in the Gospels there appears to be wholesale copying from some other source or one from the other. The ability to copy another's work, as far as I understand, is not restricted to Jews.

I think it was/is restricted to Jews. Wasn't the restriction confined to Jewish interpretation as Jews understood it in their OT scripts? Where in OT do the Jews prophecy a dying and rising man-god as "the one who should come"?

"And is one professing to be a Christian permitted to eat only that which a Jew living "under the Law" may eat?" (Sheshbazzar).

show_no_mercy · 10-17-2009, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

ויאמר יהוה אל־משה לאמר׃
ואתה דבר אל־בני ישראל לאמר אך את־שבתתי תשמרו כי אות הוא ביני וביניכם לדרתיכם לדעת כי אני יהוה מקדשכם׃
ושמרתם את־השבת כי קדש הוא לכם מחלליה מות יומת כי כל־העשה בה מלאכה ונכרתה הנפש ההוא מקרב עמיה׃
ששת ימים יעשה מלאכה וביום השביעי שבת שבתון קדש ליהוה כל־העשה מלאכה ביום השבת מות יומת׃
ושמרו בני־ישראל את־השבת לעשות את־השבת לדרתם ברית עולם׃
ביני ובין בני ישראל אות הוא לעלם כי־ששת ימים עשה יהוה את־השמים ואת־הארץ וביום השביעי שבת וינפש׃

זכור את־יום השבת לקדשו
ששת ימים תעבד ועשית כל־מלאכתך
ויום השביעי שבת ליהוה אלהיך לא־תעשה כל־מלאכה אתה ובנך־ובתך עבדך ואמתך ובהמתך וגרך אשר בשעריך

The Jews and the Law

17Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God; 18if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”b

25Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. 26If those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? 27The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have thec written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.

28A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise is not from men, but from God.

You are quoting Paul as though you think he's the authority on what's Jewish

Quote:

9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

How could a "Jew" not know The Name and think that Joel 2:32 actually says the word "Lord"?

arnoldo · 10-17-2009, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

The Jews and the Law

17Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God; 18if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”b

25Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. 26If those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? 27The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have thec written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.

28A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise is not from men, but from God.

You are quoting Paul as though you think he's the authority on what's Jewish

Quote:

9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

How could a "Jew" not know The Name and think that Joel 2:32 actually says the word "Lord"?

Isn't that what Septuagint says? :huh:

arnoldo · 10-17-2009, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Jesus was a jew.

So, anyone who writes a biography of an American must be from the USA.

How absurd.

And further in the Gospels there appears to be wholesale copying from some other source or one from the other. The ability to copy another's work, as far as I understand, is not restricted to Jews.

You make a good point. According to the Hindu Prank Postulate the writers of the NT were actually Hindus pretending to be Jews. They also cleverly inserted real historical persons into their texts, such as Pontius Pilate, in order to make their writings look authentic.

Limestone block discovered in 1961 with Pilate's tribute in Latin to Tiberius. The words [...]TIVS PILATVS[...] can be clearly seen on the second line.

Sheshbazzar · 10-17-2009, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

ויאמר יהוה אל־משה לאמר׃
ואתה דבר אל־בני ישראל לאמר אך את־שבתתי תשמרו כי אות הוא ביני וביניכם לדרתיכם לדעת כי אני יהוה מקדשכם׃
ושמרתם את־השבת כי קדש הוא לכם מחלליה מות יומת כי כל־העשה בה מלאכה ונכרתה הנפש ההוא מקרב עמיה׃
ששת ימים יעשה מלאכה וביום השביעי שבת שבתון קדש ליהוה כל־העשה מלאכה ביום השבת מות יומת׃
ושמרו בני־ישראל את־השבת לעשות את־השבת לדרתם ברית עולם׃
ביני ובין בני ישראל אות הוא לעלם כי־ששת ימים עשה יהוה את־השמים ואת־הארץ וביום השביעי שבת וינפש׃

זכור את־יום השבת לקדשו
ששת ימים תעבד ועשית כל־מלאכתך
ויום השביעי שבת ליהוה אלהיך לא־תעשה כל־מלאכה אתה ובנך־ובתך עבדך ואמתך ובהמתך וגרך אשר בשעריך

The Jews and the Law

17Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God; 18if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”b

25Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. 26If those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? 27The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have thec written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.

28A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise is not from men, but from God.

Can you read, and do you know the meaning of The Torah verses that I delineated above O' arnoldo thou 'Jew'?

You bring forth 'Paul's' alleged writing's to Jewish men, while claiming yourself to be a 'Jew', while obliviously ignoring the fact that if you are claiming to be a Jew,
those words are specifically directed at ones such as you, yourself.
(they have no application in any reference to me, as I am not, and never have been a 'Jew')
Therefore consider the admonition of this 'Paul';
“God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of YOU.” (the JEW)

Did I above recite any Laws regarding the practice of circumcision?
Please, do feel free to quote and/or translate that portion of the above cited Torah text(s)
(If any wonder, regarding the above Hebrew verses, they have nothing to say regarding the practice of circumcision)

I recited a few of The Laws, now again, the question is, DO YOU or DO YOU NOT know, observe, 'keep', and DO these Commandments?

By 'Paul's' above given reasoning in 25-27 the uncircumcised are justified in the keeping of The Law, as are also the circumcised;
BOTH uncircumcised and also circumcised, however, DO both obey, keep, and DO The Law, to receive their praise from Elohim.

Now, in the professing of yourself to be a 'Jew', are you of the circumcision or of the uncircumcision? Makes no difference,
According to 'Paul', nothing is advantaged either way to you in circumcision or in uncircumcision except that you obey, keep, and DO The Law.

Thus I ask you yet again, What say you, -yourself- regarding those Torah words which were set before you above; Must every 'Jew' obey and DO them, or NOT?
Do you O' "arnoldo the Jew", keep and DO all the words of those Laws with all of your heart, all of your mind, and all of your strength? that your praise might be from Elohim?
OR, is it not rather much more true, that you do not know the meaning of those words of Torah, do NOT 'observe', do NOT 'obey', do NOT 'keep', and do NOT DO those things that these words command each and every 'Jew' to DO?
No judgment is being rendered here, only your own testimony, elicited FOR or AGAINST The words of The Holy Scriptures.
No one else can answer these questions for you; It is yours to testify, and to answer for yourself, that "by thy own words shalt thou be.....

arnoldo · 10-18-2009, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Consider the following from another thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Message to arnoldo: I will number the prophecies that you mentioned for easy reference.

Prophecies of Yeshua's First Coming

Item 1

He would be a descendent of Abraham (Avraham).
(Genesis 12:1-3; 18:18; 22:18; Matthew 1:1-2,17; Galatians 3:8,16)

Item 2

He would be from the tribe of Judah (Yehudah) .
(Genesis 49:8-10; Hebrews 7:14; Revelation 5:5)

Item 3

He would be a descendent of David. (2 Samuel 7:4-5,12-13; 1 Chronicles 17:11-14; Psalm 132:11; Luke 1:32-33,67-69; Acts 2:29-30; Matthew 1:17; Romans 1:3)

Item 4

He would be born in Bethlehem (Beit Lechem).
(Micah 5:2; Matthew 2:4-6; John 7:42)

Item 5

He would be from Nazareth and be called a Nazarene.
(Matthew 2:23; Luke 1:26-27; John 1:45; Judges 13:5-7,24)

Item 6

The exact time of His crucifixion was known (483 years from the decree to build the temple, which was around 444 B.C.E.). (Daniel 9:25; Nehemiah
2:1-8; 5:14)

Item 7

He would be born of a virgin.
(Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:20-23; Galatians 4:4; Genesis 3:15)

Item 8

His name would be Immanuel. Immanuel in Hebrew means "G-d with us."
(Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:21-23)

Item 9

His name would be Jesus (Yeshua in Hebrew), which means "Savior" or "Salvation." The word Yeshua in Hebrew means "salvation." It is derived from another Hebrew word, Yashah, which means "to save, deliver, preserve, bring salvation, get victory." (Matthew 1:21)

Item 10

His name would be the Messiah. The word Christ in English comes from the Greek word Christos, which means "The Anointed One." Christos in Greek is the word Mashiach in Hebrew, which also means "The Anointed One." The word Mashiach means "Messiah," who is Yeshua. (John 1:41)

Item 11

He would be the only begotten Son of G-d.
(Psalm 2:2,6-7; John 1:14; Acts 13:33; Hebrews 1:1-2,5)

Item 12

He would be the Son of G-d and G-d would be His Father.
(Psalm 89:26-27; 2 Samuel 7:8,12-14; 1 Chronicles 22:7-10; Hebrews 1:1-2,
5; Mark 14:36; John 20:30-31)

Item 13

He would be circumcised the eighth day according to the law of purification.
(Luke 2:21-24; Leviticus 12:1-6)

Item 14

He would go to Egypt and return to the land of Israel.
(Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:13-15)

Item 15

Young babies would die in an attempt to kill Yeshua at His birth.
(Jeremiah 31:15; Matthew 2:16-18)

Item 16

He would be preceded by a messenger (a type of Elijah [Eliyahu] known as John (Yochanan) the Immerser [Baptist]) who would prepare the way of the Lord. (Malachi 3:1; Luke 1:13,76; Matthew 11:7,10)

Item 17

The messenger, John (Yochanan) the Immerser (Baptist), would be preaching in the wilderness. (Isaiah 40:3-5; Luke 1:13,80,3:2-6)

Item 18

He would be a prophet like Moses (Moshe).
(Deuteronomy 18:15; John 1:45; Acts 3:20-23)

Item 19

He would be anointed of the Holy Spirit (Ruach HaKodesh).
(Isaiah 11:1-2; 42:1; Matthew 3:16)

Item 20

He would preach and teach in the temple (Beit HaMikdash).
(Malachi 3:1; Luke 4:16; Matthew 26:55; John 7:28; 8:1-2)

Item 21

He came specifically to the house of Israel and not to the Gentiles.
(Matthew 15:21-26)

Item 22

Yeshua would be rejected by His own people Israel (corporately). [Note: It should be pointed out that many, many individual Jews were believers in Messiah during the first century. This can be seen very clearly by carefully examining Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and the Book of Acts.(Psalm 69:8; 31:11; 88:8,18; Job 19:13; John 1:11; 7:3,5)]

Item 23

Yeshua is the stone that the builders rejected.
(Psalm 118:22; Isaiah 3:10-12; Romans 9:11)

Item 24

Yeshua would be received by the Gentiles (corporately). [Note: It should be pointed out that many Gentiles are not believers in Yeshua and many others are believers in name only and not true followers with their hearts. The believers in Messiah are commanded to follow G-d with all of their heart (Deuteronomy 6:4-9).] (Isaiah 11:10; 42:6; 49:6,22; 54:3; 60:3,5,11,16; 61:6,9; 62:2; 66:12,19; Malachi 1:11; Luke 2:30-32; Acts 28:28)

Item 25

He would speak in parables.
(Psalm 78:2-4; Matthew 13:34-35)

Item 26

The ministry of Yeshua would be in Galilee.
(Isaiah 9:1-2; Matthew 4:12-16,23)

Item 27

His ministry would be to heal the sick, set the captives free, and preach deliverance. This is known as the basar (gospel) in Hebrew.
(Isaiah 61:1-2; Luke 4:16-21; Matthew 4:23; 9:34-35; Acts 2:22; 10:38)

Item 28

Yeshua was to be the shepherd of Israel because Israel had no shepherd.
(Ezekiel 34:5-10; 1 Kings 22:17; Zechariah 10:2; Genesis 49:22,24; Psalm 23:1; 80:1; Isaiah 40:10-11; Ezekiel 34:23-24; 37:24; John 10:11,14-15)

Item 29

His message would not be believed.
(Isaiah 53:1; John 12:37-38)

Item 30

The meek would praise Him.
(Psalm 8:1-2; Matthew 21:15-16)

Item 31

Illegal merchandise trading would be done in the temple.
(Psalm 69:9; John 2:13-17; Isaiah 56:7; Matthew 21:12-13)

Item 32

He would be hated.
(Psalm 69:4; 35:19; 109:2-3; 119:161; John 15:24-25)

Item 33

He would be a reproach to the people.
(Psalm 69:9; 89:50-51; Romans 15:3)

Item 34

He would not seek publicity.
(Isaiah 42:1-2; Matthew 12:15-19; 9:30; 8:4)

Item 35

He can be trusted and would be compassionate.
(Isaiah 42:3; Matthew 12:15,20-21)

Item 36

No evil words would proceed from His mouth.
(Isaiah 53:9; Luke 23:41; 1 Peter 2:21-22; 2 Corinthians 5:21)

Item 37

His disciples would forsake Him.
(Zechariah 13:7; Matthew 26:31-35,56)

Item 38

There was nothing physically beautiful in Him to be desired.
(Isaiah 53:2; Psalm 22:6; Mark 6:1-3; Philippians 2:7)

Item 39

He gave up the glory in Heaven for the poverty of earth.
(Luke 9:58; 2 Corinthians 8:9)

Item 40

He would publicly enter Jerusalem (Yerushalayim) before the time of His crucifixion. (Zechariah 9:9; Matthew 21:1-5)

Item 41

He would ride into Jerusalem (Yerushalayim) on a donkey.
(Zechariah 9:9; Matthew 21:5)

Item 42

He would be sold for 30 pieces of silver.
(Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:14-16)

Item 43

His betrayal price would be given for a potter's field.
(Zechariah 11:13; Matthew 27:3,7-10)

Item 44

He would be betrayed by a friend.
(Psalm 41:9; John 13:18-21)

Item 45

Both Jew and Gentile would conspire against Him.
(Psalm 2:1-2; Acts 4:27-28; Matthew 26:3; 27:1-2)

Item 46

He would be nailed to a tree.
(Deuteronomy 21:22-23; Psalm 22:16; John 19:18; 20:25)

Item 47

He would suffer for others.
(Isaiah 53:6; Matthew 20:28)

Item 48

He would die for our sins.
(Isaiah 53:5; 1 Corinthians 15:3; 1 Peter 2:24)

Item 49

He would be mocked.
(Psalm 22:7-8; Matthew 27:39-43)

Item 50

He would die with the transgressors.
(Isaiah 53: 12; Mark 15:27-28)

Item 51

He would make intercession for His murderers.
(Isaiah 53:12; Luke 23:34)

Item 52

He would be smitten.
(Micah 5:1; Isaiah 50:6; Lamentations 3:30; Matthew 26:67; 27:30)

Item 53

He would be spit upon.
(Isaiah 50:6; Matthew 26:67, 27:30)

Item 54

He would be forsaken by G-d.
(Psalm 22:1; Matthew 27:46)

Item 55

He would be given gall and vinegar to eat and drink.
(Psalm 69:21; Matthew 27:34,48)

Item 56

He opened not His mouth when accused.
(Isaiah 53:7; Matthew 26:63-64; 27:12-14)

Item 57

His garments would be parted.
(Psalm 22:18; Matthew 27:35)

Item 58

Not one bone would be broken.
(Psalm 34:20; John 19:33,36)

Item 59

He would be pierced.
(Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34,37)

Item 60

He would be like a lamb going to the slaughter.
(Isaiah 53:7; Acts 8:26-35)

Item 61

He is King of the Jews (and the world).
(Psalm 2:6; John 18:33,37; 19:19-22)

Item 62

He would be buried with the rich.
(Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60)

Item 63

He would die.
(Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:50)

Item 64

His soul would not be left in hell.
(Psalm 16:10; 49:15; 56:13; Acts 2:27,31; 13:33-35)

Item 65

He would rise from the dead.
(Psalm 16:10; Luke 24:6,31,34; Acts 2:27-31; 13:35)

Item 66

Others would rise from the dead with Him.
(Psalm 68:18; Ephesians 4:8; Matthew 27:52-53)

Item 67

He would rise the third day from the grave.
(Jonah 1:17; 1 Corinthians 15:4; Luke 24:45-46; Matthew 12:40)

Item 68

He would ascend into Heaven.
(Psalm 68:18; Acts 1:9; Luke 24:50-51)

Item 69

He would sit at the right hand of G-d.
(Psalm 110:1; Hebrews 1:2-3; Ephesians 1:20-21; 1 Peter 3:22)

Item 70

He would usher in a New Covenant (Brit Hadashah).
(Jeremiah 31:31; Luke 22:20)

Item 71

He would be a sure foundation to all who believe.
(Isaiah 28: 16; Romans 10:11; 1 Peter 2:4-6)

It is interesting to note that there is not any credible evidence that any of those prophecies was divinely inspired. I request that arnoldo pick whichever of those prophecies that he wants to discuss, or all of them one by one if that is what he wants to do.

Let's discuss prophecy #1.

semiopen · 10-20-2009, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Consider the following from another thread:

It is interesting to note that there is not any credible evidence that any of those prophecies was divinely inspired. I request that arnoldo pick whichever of those prophecies that he wants to discuss, or all of them one by one if that is what he wants to do.

Let's discuss prophecy #1.

Ok, the NT stuff seems after the fact, (and my mother told me I'd lose my hair and get arthritis if I ever read it - or maybe that was for something else) but the Genesis lines:

12:2-3

Quote:

I will make of you a great nation. I will bless you and make your name great. You will be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you. All of the families of the earth will be blessed in you.

18:18

Quote:

since Abraham has surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth will be blessed in him?

22:18

Quote:

In your seed will all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice.

Doesn't show a picture to me of a guy in a long robe riding a dinosaur, but who knows.

The Hebrew for "earth" is adamah here. This reminded me of your contention that "aretz" means land instead of earth in the flood story. Adamah means ground, maybe it means the earth here. I guess like "almah," the bible can mean whatever one wants it to mean.

show_no_mercy · 10-20-2009, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

You are quoting Paul as though you think he's the authority on what's Jewish

How could a "Jew" not know The Name and think that Joel 2:32 actually says the word "Lord"?

Isn't that what Septuagint says? :huh:

This is precisely my point. A "Jew" who claimed to be an educated Pharisee would know The Name and know that it is not "lord". If Paul is reading the LXX, then he lied about being a Pharisee. Who knows what else he was lying about.

As a counterpoint, the very Jewish "Ebionites" claimed that Paul was a Greek who converted to Judaism to marry some girl and apostatized when she rejected him.

arnoldo · 10-20-2009, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Isn't that what Septuagint says? :huh:

This is precisely my point. A "Jew" who claimed to be an educated Pharisee would know The Name and know that it is not "lord".

The same verse is used in Acts 2:21. so this interpretation of Joel 2:28-32 is not unique to Paul. Are you claiming to have a better understanding of the OT than the NT writers? As a counterpoint, NT writers weren't as retentive about the OT scriptures as some skeptics according to the following source;

Quote:

The primary and crucial move in the New Testament is the amalgamation of Deutero's Suffering Servant with Isaiah's Prince of Peace. As we saw, the prophets themselves had somewhat pointed things in this direction. However, as we also noted earlier, the two figures are diverse enough in character that apparently it never occurred to Jewish thinkers that the two could go together. .

The combination represents a radical departure from earlier thought; and yet it was made so easily. In part, this must be attributed to the fact that early Christian thinkers just did not make the sort of historical, developmental distinctions with which we have been dealing. They gave no thought to the difference between Isaiah, Deutero-Isaiah, or the third part of Isaiah. In fact, they gave little or no thought in the difference between one prophetic book and another. A not at all uncommon occurrence in the New Testament is to find an author saying, "As it is written in the prophets," and giving a quotation that is constructed out of lines taken from a number of different prophets. However, the significant point is that, no matter how the New Testament writers quote the Old Testament, the passages to which they go almost invariably represent the Zion Tradition.

Vernad Eller; War and Peace from Genesis to Revelation;

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

If Paul is reading the LXX, then he lied about being a Pharisee.

Why?

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Who knows what else he was lying about.

I'm sure you have a few ideas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

As a counterpoint, the very Jewish "Ebionites" claimed that Paul was a Greek who converted to Judaism to marry some girl and apostatized when she rejected him.

Sources please.

show_no_mercy · 10-20-2009, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

This is precisely my point. A "Jew" who claimed to be an educated Pharisee would know The Name and know that it is not "lord".

The same verse is used in Acts 2:21. so this interpretation of Joel 2:28-32 is not unique to Paul. Are you claiming to have a better understanding of the OT than the NT writers?

It's an unfounded assumption that the writers of the NT were Jews. To say that they were just because they quote Jewish scripture is jumping the gun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

As a counterpoint, NT writers weren't as retentive about the OT scriptures as some skeptics according to the following source;

Quote:

The primary and crucial move in the New Testament is the amalgamation of Deutero's Suffering Servant with Isaiah's Prince of Peace. As we saw, the prophets themselves had somewhat pointed things in this direction. However, as we also noted earlier, the two figures are diverse enough in character that apparently it never occurred to Jewish thinkers that the two could go together. .

The combination represents a radical departure from earlier thought; and yet it was made so easily. In part, this must be attributed to the fact that early Christian thinkers just did not make the sort of historical, developmental distinctions with which we have been dealing. They gave no thought to the difference between Isaiah, Deutero-Isaiah, or the third part of Isaiah. In fact, they gave little or no thought in the difference between one prophetic book and another. A not at all uncommon occurrence in the New Testament is to find an author saying, "As it is written in the prophets," and giving a quotation that is constructed out of lines taken from a number of different prophets. However, the significant point is that, no matter how the New Testament writers quote the Old Testament, the passages to which they go almost invariably represent the Zion Tradition.

I don't think the Jews even saw a difference between the two (possibly three) writers of Isaiah. This doesn't mean that Christians knew more about the Tanakh than Jews. Consider:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew 24:15

So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel

Daniel wasn't a prophet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

If Paul is reading the LXX, then he lied about being a Pharisee.

Why?

Either he lied about being a Pharisee (who are trained to read Hebrew) or was pulling the wool over the eyes of his non-Jewish churches.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

As a counterpoint, the very Jewish "Ebionites" claimed that Paul was a Greek who converted to Judaism to marry some girl and apostatized when she rejected him.

Sources please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epiphanius', Panarion 30.16.6-9

[The Ebionites] declare that he was a Greek [...] He went up to Jerusalem, they say, and when he had spent some time there, he was seized with a passion to marry the daughter of the priest. For this reason he became a proselyte and was circumcised. Then, when he failed to get the girl, he flew into a rage and wrote against circumcision and against the sabbath and the Law

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