Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Johnny Skeptic · 10-13-2009, 09:54 PM

Consider the following from another thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Message to arnoldo: I will number the prophecies that you mentioned for easy reference.

Prophecies of Yeshua's First Coming

Item 1

He would be a descendent of Abraham (Avraham).
(Genesis 12:1-3; 18:18; 22:18; Matthew 1:1-2,17; Galatians 3:8,16)

Item 2

He would be from the tribe of Judah (Yehudah) .
(Genesis 49:8-10; Hebrews 7:14; Revelation 5:5)

Item 3

He would be a descendent of David. (2 Samuel 7:4-5,12-13; 1 Chronicles 17:11-14; Psalm 132:11; Luke 1:32-33,67-69; Acts 2:29-30; Matthew 1:17; Romans 1:3)

Item 4

He would be born in Bethlehem (Beit Lechem).
(Micah 5:2; Matthew 2:4-6; John 7:42)

Item 5

He would be from Nazareth and be called a Nazarene.
(Matthew 2:23; Luke 1:26-27; John 1:45; Judges 13:5-7,24)

Item 6

The exact time of His crucifixion was known (483 years from the decree to build the temple, which was around 444 B.C.E.). (Daniel 9:25; Nehemiah
2:1-8; 5:14)

Item 7

He would be born of a virgin.
(Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:20-23; Galatians 4:4; Genesis 3:15)

Item 8

His name would be Immanuel. Immanuel in Hebrew means "G-d with us."
(Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:21-23)

Item 9

His name would be Jesus (Yeshua in Hebrew), which means "Savior" or "Salvation." The word Yeshua in Hebrew means "salvation." It is derived from another Hebrew word, Yashah, which means "to save, deliver, preserve, bring salvation, get victory." (Matthew 1:21)

Item 10

His name would be the Messiah. The word Christ in English comes from the Greek word Christos, which means "The Anointed One." Christos in Greek is the word Mashiach in Hebrew, which also means "The Anointed One." The word Mashiach means "Messiah," who is Yeshua. (John 1:41)

Item 11

He would be the only begotten Son of G-d.
(Psalm 2:2,6-7; John 1:14; Acts 13:33; Hebrews 1:1-2,5)

Item 12

He would be the Son of G-d and G-d would be His Father.
(Psalm 89:26-27; 2 Samuel 7:8,12-14; 1 Chronicles 22:7-10; Hebrews 1:1-2,
5; Mark 14:36; John 20:30-31)

Item 13

He would be circumcised the eighth day according to the law of purification.
(Luke 2:21-24; Leviticus 12:1-6)

Item 14

He would go to Egypt and return to the land of Israel.
(Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:13-15)

Item 15

Young babies would die in an attempt to kill Yeshua at His birth.
(Jeremiah 31:15; Matthew 2:16-18)

Item 16

He would be preceded by a messenger (a type of Elijah [Eliyahu] known as John (Yochanan) the Immerser [Baptist]) who would prepare the way of the Lord. (Malachi 3:1; Luke 1:13,76; Matthew 11:7,10)

Item 17

The messenger, John (Yochanan) the Immerser (Baptist), would be preaching in the wilderness. (Isaiah 40:3-5; Luke 1:13,80,3:2-6)

Item 18

He would be a prophet like Moses (Moshe).
(Deuteronomy 18:15; John 1:45; Acts 3:20-23)

Item 19

He would be anointed of the Holy Spirit (Ruach HaKodesh).
(Isaiah 11:1-2; 42:1; Matthew 3:16)

Item 20

He would preach and teach in the temple (Beit HaMikdash).
(Malachi 3:1; Luke 4:16; Matthew 26:55; John 7:28; 8:1-2)

Item 21

He came specifically to the house of Israel and not to the Gentiles.
(Matthew 15:21-26)

Item 22

Yeshua would be rejected by His own people Israel (corporately). [Note: It should be pointed out that many, many individual Jews were believers in Messiah during the first century. This can be seen very clearly by carefully examining Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and the Book of Acts.(Psalm 69:8; 31:11; 88:8,18; Job 19:13; John 1:11; 7:3,5)]

Item 23

Yeshua is the stone that the builders rejected.
(Psalm 118:22; Isaiah 3:10-12; Romans 9:11)

Item 24

Yeshua would be received by the Gentiles (corporately). [Note: It should be pointed out that many Gentiles are not believers in Yeshua and many others are believers in name only and not true followers with their hearts. The believers in Messiah are commanded to follow G-d with all of their heart (Deuteronomy 6:4-9).] (Isaiah 11:10; 42:6; 49:6,22; 54:3; 60:3,5,11,16; 61:6,9; 62:2; 66:12,19; Malachi 1:11; Luke 2:30-32; Acts 28:28)

Item 25

He would speak in parables.
(Psalm 78:2-4; Matthew 13:34-35)

Item 26

The ministry of Yeshua would be in Galilee.
(Isaiah 9:1-2; Matthew 4:12-16,23)

Item 27

His ministry would be to heal the sick, set the captives free, and preach deliverance. This is known as the basar (gospel) in Hebrew.
(Isaiah 61:1-2; Luke 4:16-21; Matthew 4:23; 9:34-35; Acts 2:22; 10:38)

Item 28

Yeshua was to be the shepherd of Israel because Israel had no shepherd.
(Ezekiel 34:5-10; 1 Kings 22:17; Zechariah 10:2; Genesis 49:22,24; Psalm 23:1; 80:1; Isaiah 40:10-11; Ezekiel 34:23-24; 37:24; John 10:11,14-15)

Item 29

His message would not be believed.
(Isaiah 53:1; John 12:37-38)

Item 30

The meek would praise Him.
(Psalm 8:1-2; Matthew 21:15-16)

Item 31

Illegal merchandise trading would be done in the temple.
(Psalm 69:9; John 2:13-17; Isaiah 56:7; Matthew 21:12-13)

Item 32

He would be hated.
(Psalm 69:4; 35:19; 109:2-3; 119:161; John 15:24-25)

Item 33

He would be a reproach to the people.
(Psalm 69:9; 89:50-51; Romans 15:3)

Item 34

He would not seek publicity.
(Isaiah 42:1-2; Matthew 12:15-19; 9:30; 8:4)

Item 35

He can be trusted and would be compassionate.
(Isaiah 42:3; Matthew 12:15,20-21)

Item 36

No evil words would proceed from His mouth.
(Isaiah 53:9; Luke 23:41; 1 Peter 2:21-22; 2 Corinthians 5:21)

Item 37

His disciples would forsake Him.
(Zechariah 13:7; Matthew 26:31-35,56)

Item 38

There was nothing physically beautiful in Him to be desired.
(Isaiah 53:2; Psalm 22:6; Mark 6:1-3; Philippians 2:7)

Item 39

He gave up the glory in Heaven for the poverty of earth.
(Luke 9:58; 2 Corinthians 8:9)

Item 40

He would publicly enter Jerusalem (Yerushalayim) before the time of His crucifixion. (Zechariah 9:9; Matthew 21:1-5)

Item 41

He would ride into Jerusalem (Yerushalayim) on a donkey.
(Zechariah 9:9; Matthew 21:5)

Item 42

He would be sold for 30 pieces of silver.
(Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:14-16)

Item 43

His betrayal price would be given for a potter's field.
(Zechariah 11:13; Matthew 27:3,7-10)

Item 44

He would be betrayed by a friend.
(Psalm 41:9; John 13:18-21)

Item 45

Both Jew and Gentile would conspire against Him.
(Psalm 2:1-2; Acts 4:27-28; Matthew 26:3; 27:1-2)

Item 46

He would be nailed to a tree.
(Deuteronomy 21:22-23; Psalm 22:16; John 19:18; 20:25)

Item 47

He would suffer for others.
(Isaiah 53:6; Matthew 20:28)

Item 48

He would die for our sins.
(Isaiah 53:5; 1 Corinthians 15:3; 1 Peter 2:24)

Item 49

He would be mocked.
(Psalm 22:7-8; Matthew 27:39-43)

Item 50

He would die with the transgressors.
(Isaiah 53: 12; Mark 15:27-28)

Item 51

He would make intercession for His murderers.
(Isaiah 53:12; Luke 23:34)

Item 52

He would be smitten.
(Micah 5:1; Isaiah 50:6; Lamentations 3:30; Matthew 26:67; 27:30)

Item 53

He would be spit upon.
(Isaiah 50:6; Matthew 26:67, 27:30)

Item 54

He would be forsaken by G-d.
(Psalm 22:1; Matthew 27:46)

Item 55

He would be given gall and vinegar to eat and drink.
(Psalm 69:21; Matthew 27:34,48)

Item 56

He opened not His mouth when accused.
(Isaiah 53:7; Matthew 26:63-64; 27:12-14)

Item 57

His garments would be parted.
(Psalm 22:18; Matthew 27:35)

Item 58

Not one bone would be broken.
(Psalm 34:20; John 19:33,36)

Item 59

He would be pierced.
(Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34,37)

Item 60

He would be like a lamb going to the slaughter.
(Isaiah 53:7; Acts 8:26-35)

Item 61

He is King of the Jews (and the world).
(Psalm 2:6; John 18:33,37; 19:19-22)

Item 62

He would be buried with the rich.
(Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60)

Item 63

He would die.
(Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:50)

Item 64

His soul would not be left in hell.
(Psalm 16:10; 49:15; 56:13; Acts 2:27,31; 13:33-35)

Item 65

He would rise from the dead.
(Psalm 16:10; Luke 24:6,31,34; Acts 2:27-31; 13:35)

Item 66

Others would rise from the dead with Him.
(Psalm 68:18; Ephesians 4:8; Matthew 27:52-53)

Item 67

He would rise the third day from the grave.
(Jonah 1:17; 1 Corinthians 15:4; Luke 24:45-46; Matthew 12:40)

Item 68

He would ascend into Heaven.
(Psalm 68:18; Acts 1:9; Luke 24:50-51)

Item 69

He would sit at the right hand of G-d.
(Psalm 110:1; Hebrews 1:2-3; Ephesians 1:20-21; 1 Peter 3:22)

Item 70

He would usher in a New Covenant (Brit Hadashah).
(Jeremiah 31:31; Luke 22:20)

Item 71

He would be a sure foundation to all who believe.
(Isaiah 28: 16; Romans 10:11; 1 Peter 2:4-6)

It is interesting to note that there is not any credible evidence that any of those prophecies was divinely inspired. I request that arnoldo pick whichever of those prophecies that he wants to discuss, or all of them one by one if that is what he wants to do.

mountainman · 10-13-2009, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Quote:

Prophecies of Yeshua's First Coming

Items 1 to 71

It is interesting to note that there is not any credible evidence that any of those prophecies was divinely inspired. I request that arnoldo pick whichever of those prophecies that he wants to discuss, or all of them one by one if that is what he wants to do.

I should also like to see the following three additional items placed on the list:

Item 72

The acrostic prediction BCE of the Erythraen Sibyl

"They suspect that "someone of our religion,
not without the gifts of the prophetic muse,
had inserted false lines and forged the Sibyl's moral tone.
These skeptics were already known to Origen ... (Constantine continues)
"Our people have compared the chronologies with great accuracy",
and the "age" of the Sibyl's verses excludes the view
that they are a post-christian fake."

Item 73

The Roman poet Cicero (106-43 BCE)
Cicero chanced upon this poem and translated it to Latin.
The Sibyl, Constantine said, had prophecised christ
in an acrostic, known to Cicero.

Item 74

The Roman Poet Virgil (70-19 BCE)

Robin Lane Fox comments ... "the proof was a fraud twice over."

Constantine informs us that the advent of Christ had been predicted by Virgil in a Latin poem, written 40 BCE, to the poet's patron Pollio.
Fox says: "Constantine cites Latin's loveliest Eclogue
to a christian audience for a meaning which it never had."

Constantine began with the seventh line, in a free Greek translation which changed its meaning"

These citations are provided by Robin Lane-Fox in his
book "Pagans and Christians" which I have reviewed here.

Johnny Skeptic · 10-13-2009, 11:39 PM

Item 1 can be easily refuted. It says "He would be a descendent of Abraham (Avraham). (Genesis 12:1-3; 18:18; 22:18; Matthew 1:1-2,17; Galatians 3:8,16)"

Obviously, there is not any credible historical evidence at all that Jesus was a genetic descendant of Abraham.

Items 2 and 3 can be easily refuted since they also depend upon genetic verification over many generations, which is impossible.

Item 4 can be easily refuted since there is not any credible historical evidence that Jesus was born in Bethlehem. In addition, Micah 5:2 said that someone would come who would become ruler in Israel. Jesus did not become ruler in Israel as ancient Jews were mislead to believe.

Item 5 can be easily refuted. It says "He would be from Nazareth and be called a Nazarene. (Matthew 2:23; Luke 1:26-27; John 1:45; Judges 13:5-7, 24)"

The references in Matthew, Luke, and John might have been added after the fact. The passages in Judges chapter 13 are as follows:

From the NASB

Verse 5-7

"For behold, you shall conceive and give birth to a son, and no razor shall come upon his head, for the boy shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb; and he shall begin to deliver Israel from the hands of the Philistines." Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, "A man of God came to me and his appearance was like the appearance of the angel of God, very awesome. And I did not ask him where he came from, nor did he tell me his name. "But he said to me, 'Behold, you shall conceive and give birth to a son, and now you shall not drink wine or strong drink nor eat any unclean thing, for the boy shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb to the day of his death.'"

There is nothing in those Scriptures that even remotely mentions anything close to Jesus.

Verse 24

"Then the woman gave birth to a son and named him Samson; and the child grew up and the LORD blessed him."

That verse obviously does not have anything to do with Jesus.

wordy · 10-14-2009, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Item 1 can be easily refuted. It says "He would be a descendent of Abraham (Avraham). (Genesis 12:1-3; 18:18; 22:18; Matthew 1:1-2,17; Galatians 3:8,16)"

Obviously, there is not any credible historical evidence at all that Jesus was a genetic descendant of Abraham.

But such texts most likely should be read as norms from somebody who wants the group to see things this way. A kind of Lobbying going on.

The text says that "Jesus" should have this authority and legacy as Abraham have for us.

Same as when they asked Jesus if he is Moses or Elijah coming back.

It is a bit like when Obama has the rhetoric legacy of JFK. They are both good at giving the appearance of bringing a broad coalition together to work for results that majority of people can agree upon. Obama inviting even non-believers to come to the table of negotiation.

These old text can be seen as their "Spin Doctoring" to find formulations that worked politically at that time.

Compare with John 4 when the Samarian women talk to Jesus about the Messiah that the Jews will give them that is supposed to be for everybody and not only for Jews.

Jesus confirms he is that Messiah.

One can see that whole text as an allegory or mythic story that are about symbols.

The anonymous Samarian woman is a symbol for the others, those that are not Jews but related through being neighbor and at odds with the Jews due to the Persian war.

Jesus as a symbol for the new way of relating to the Abba. they Kingdom to come. The new convenant.

Neither the woman nor Jesus is real persons they are symbols for whole people.

It is supposed to be read as Midrash(interpretation ) Same with the prophesies. They are allegory or ways to bring over a message.

gdeering · 10-14-2009, 05:03 AM

Dear Arnoldo,

Please enlighten me as to the meaning of item 6. I have looked at the references and crucifixion is not mentioned?

Daniel 9:25
Nehemiah 2:1-8
Nehemiah 5:14

It seems to be if crucifixion was specifically mentioned in the OT, then it's not really surprising that Jesus would be crucified? Doesn't this take an arrow from the believer's quiver? How can they talk about an ignoble death when this type of death is specifically proscribed by God?

Also, I'm surprised then that some people think the Messiah was supposed to get something done on earth the first time he was here (like rule the world)? Is there any thing in the OT about the fact that he will come to earth twice?

Gregg

ph2ter · 10-14-2009, 05:53 AM

It is obvious that NT Jesus is modeled according to those prophecies and not that some real person living in 1st century complies with them.

gdeering · 10-14-2009, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ph2ter

It is obvious that NT Jesus is modeled according to those prophecies and not that some real person living in 1st century complies with them.

HI,

Although I am waiting for an answer in good faith, I wish I did not hate these emoticons, so I'll make one: 0-(:-)}.

Anyway, prophesy seems a double-edge sword. On the one hand it's the word of God or on the other ---- if it's all laid out then one just has to "build to suit" when creating a Messiah. All the Mod Cons in british flat rental advertising. Alternatively, if the prophesy is found after the fact (i.e. after the figure has been created), then it's not really prophesy?

Of course there is always "secret knowledge," but that's secret!

Gregg

Sheshbazzar · 10-14-2009, 06:46 AM

The simple expedient was to invent the stories that would claim to be the "fulfillment" of these OT 'prophecies'.
This is a far more likely, reasonable, and rational explanation, than that these so called NT 'fulfillment's' ever actually took place anywhere outside of the writers imaginations, 'interpreting' and force fitting of 'prophecies', just as is still being carried on today amongst the religiously inclined.
IE The Fundy claim that modern Israel is the 'fulfillment' of the OTs prophecies, in spite of the fact that it falls short in hundreds of ways.

semiopen · 10-14-2009, 06:50 AM

Actually, I've fulfilled all these prophecies except:

Quote:

He would sit at the right hand of G-d.
(Psalm 110:1; Hebrews 1:2-3; Ephesians 1:20-21; 1 Peter 3:22)

I'm sitting at the left hand of God.

Close but no cigar, but at least I don't get bitch slapped as much.

gdeering · 10-14-2009, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Actually, I've fulfilled all these prophecies except....

Man that means you have ridden into Jerusalem (Yerushalayim) on a donkey (Item 41). That takes guts, but did you ride on two?

I've given up the glory in Heaven for the poverty of earth. (Item 39 ) But who hasn't?

Gregg

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10-13-2009, 11:39 PM	#3
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Item 1 can be easily refuted. It says "He would be a descendent of Abraham (Avraham). (Genesis 12:1-3; 18:18; 22:18; Matthew 1:1-2,17; Galatians 3:8,16)" Obviously, there is not any credible historical evidence at all that Jesus was a genetic descendant of Abraham. Items 2 and 3 can be easily refuted since they also depend upon genetic verification over many generations, which is impossible. Item 4 can be easily refuted since there is not any credible historical evidence that Jesus was born in Bethlehem. In addition, Micah 5:2 said that someone would come who would become ruler in Israel. Jesus did not become ruler in Israel as ancient Jews were mislead to believe. Item 5 can be easily refuted. It says "He would be from Nazareth and be called a Nazarene. (Matthew 2:23; Luke 1:26-27; John 1:45; Judges 13:5-7, 24)" The references in Matthew, Luke, and John might have been added after the fact. The passages in Judges chapter 13 are as follows: From the NASB Verse 5-7 "For behold, you shall conceive and give birth to a son, and no razor shall come upon his head, for the boy shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb; and he shall begin to deliver Israel from the hands of the Philistines." Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, "A man of God came to me and his appearance was like the appearance of the angel of God, very awesome. And I did not ask him where he came from, nor did he tell me his name. "But he said to me, 'Behold, you shall conceive and give birth to a son, and now you shall not drink wine or strong drink nor eat any unclean thing, for the boy shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb to the day of his death.'" There is nothing in those Scriptures that even remotely mentions anything close to Jesus. Verse 24 "Then the woman gave birth to a son and named him Samson; and the child grew up and the LORD blessed him." That verse obviously does not have anything to do with Jesus.

10-14-2009, 05:03 AM	#5
gdeering Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 237	Dear Arnoldo, Please enlighten me as to the meaning of item 6. I have looked at the references and crucifixion is not mentioned? Daniel 9:25 Nehemiah 2:1-8 Nehemiah 5:14 It seems to be if crucifixion was specifically mentioned in the OT, then it's not really surprising that Jesus would be crucified? Doesn't this take an arrow from the believer's quiver? How can they talk about an ignoble death when this type of death is specifically proscribed by God? Also, I'm surprised then that some people think the Messiah was supposed to get something done on earth the first time he was here (like rule the world)? Is there any thing in the OT about the fact that he will come to earth twice? Gregg

10-14-2009, 05:53 AM	#6
ph2ter Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Europe Posts: 219	It is obvious that NT Jesus is modeled according to those prophecies and not that some real person living in 1st century complies with them.

10-14-2009, 06:46 AM	#8
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	The simple expedient was to invent the stories that would claim to be the "fulfillment" of these OT 'prophecies'. This is a far more likely, reasonable, and rational explanation, than that these so called NT 'fulfillment's' ever actually took place anywhere outside of the writers imaginations, 'interpreting' and force fitting of 'prophecies', just as is still being carried on today amongst the religiously inclined. IE The Fundy claim that modern Israel is the 'fulfillment' of the OTs prophecies, in spite of the fact that it falls short in hundreds of ways.

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