Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vorkosigan · 03-28-2012, 01:10 AM

I re-opened my NT blog after a multi-year hiatus. Yeah!

For my first post I ran with the idea of a net-friend, Sid Green, who argues that if you look at Hippolytus' account of the Essenes, it appears that Xtians must have edited Josephus' account. Post is here:

http://michaelturton2.blogspot.com/2...christian.html

Vorkosigan

maryhelena · 03-28-2012, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

I re-opened my NT blog after a multi-year hiatus. Yeah!

For my first post I ran with the idea of a net-friend, Sid Green, who argues that if you look at Hippolytus' account of the Essenes, it appears that Xtians must have edited Josephus' account. Post is here:

http://michaelturton2.blogspot.com/2...christian.html

Vorkosigan

Volk - nice to see you re-start your blog!

As to the Essenes and Sid Green - Christians updating Josephus? And what about Josephus updating, and back dating, Philo's Essenes??

I'm still going with Rachel Elior on this one. The Essenes did not exist. They are nothing more than a philosophical ideal that Philo placed in the land of Palestine and Syria. The why of that - and its a big *why* - could do with some searching for answers - but their historicity cannot be established.

http://www.freeratio.org/thearchives...d.php?t=264056

Essenes never existed, were a Josephan invention, claims Rachel Elior

tanya · 03-28-2012, 02:53 AM

Thank you Vorkosigan, the spider is fantastic!

I appreciate the link, maryhelena. It was a terrific thread.

From what I scanned at that link, it appears that, as with Vork's blog, the emphasis in that thread is on Josephus.

I am more interested in the archaeological evidence, and in particular, I am puzzled by the HUGE aqueducts constructed to bring fresh water to Qumran. Who could have built them, if there had been no permanent residents living there?

There is also the question of the clay used in constructing the jars used to hold the thousands of documents. That clay comes, at least in part, from mountains, many kilometers removed from Qumran, suggesting a big effort, to manufacture those jars.

I obviously don't know if there were "Essenes", but someone was living there.

aa5874 · 03-28-2012, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

I re-opened my NT blog after a multi-year hiatus. Yeah!

For my first post I ran with the idea of a net-friend, Sid Green, who argues that if you look at Hippolytus' account of the Essenes, it appears that Xtians must have edited Josephus' account. Post is here:

http://michaelturton2.blogspot.com/2...christian.html

Vorkosigan

Volk - nice to see you re-start your blog!

As to the Essenes and Sid Green - Christians updating Josephus? And what about Josephus updating, and back dating, Philo's Essenes??

I'm still going with Rachel Elior on this one. The Essenes did not exist. They are nothing more than a philosophical ideal that Philo placed in the land of Palestine and Syria. The why of that - and its a big *why* - could do with some searching for answers - but their historicity cannot be established.

http://www.freeratio.org/thearchives...d.php?t=264056

Essenes never existed, were a Josephan invention, claims Rachel Elior

Why do you persist in maintaing that you are going with Rachel Elior when you have immediately CONTRADICTED her???

You are claiming that it was Philo who Invented the Essenes so you are NOT with Rachel who claimed that it was Josephus.

In effect, you have inadvertently shown that Rachel is in error.

The problem for you and Rachel is that we have THREE independent sources, Philo, Josephus and Pliny the Elder who wrote of the Essenes in the 1st century.

maryhelena · 03-28-2012, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

I re-opened my NT blog after a multi-year hiatus. Yeah!

For my first post I ran with the idea of a net-friend, Sid Green, who argues that if you look at Hippolytus' account of the Essenes, it appears that Xtians must have edited Josephus' account. Post is here:

http://michaelturton2.blogspot.com/2...christian.html

Vorkosigan

Volk - nice to see you re-start your blog!

As to the Essenes and Sid Green - Christians updating Josephus? And what about Josephus updating, and back dating, Philo's Essenes??

I'm still going with Rachel Elior on this one. The Essenes did not exist. They are nothing more than a philosophical ideal that Philo placed in the land of Palestine and Syria. The why of that - and its a big *why* - could do with some searching for answers - but their historicity cannot be established.

http://www.freeratio.org/thearchives...d.php?t=264056

Essenes never existed, were a Josephan invention, claims Rachel Elior

Why do you persist in maintaing that you are going with Rachel Elior when you have immediately CONTRADICTED her???

You are claiming that it was Philo who Invented the Essenes so you are NOT with Rachel who claimed that it was Josephus.

In effect, you have inadvertently shown that Rachel is in error.

The problem for you and Rachel is that we have THREE independent sources, Philo, Josephus and Pliny the Elder who wrote of the Essenes in the 1st century.

Philo created an ideal, philosophical 'community', in the land of Palestine and Syria.

Quote:

Rachel Elior:

The Essenes were first introduced by Philo (d. 50 CE), a first century Jewish scholar who lived in Alexandria. Philo was interested in the ideas of the Stoa and told his readers that there were more than 4,000 Essenes (Essaioi) living in villages throughout the Land of Israel. He maintained that these people had no monetary concerns, lived a very simple, modest life, did not have any earthly possessions, devoted much of their time to study, and observed the Sabbath according to all the strictest instructions. He further noted their love of God, their concerns with piety, honesty, morality, philanthropy, holiness, equality, freedom, and the importance of communal life. He added that the holy Essenes did not marry and lived a celibate life, and practiced communal residence, money, property, food and clothing. He said that they convened in synagogues every Sabbath and studied the law according to philosophical and allegorical interpretations. He maintained that these people cherished freedom, possessed no slaves, and resented the use of weapons or participation in commerce. Philo did not mention any name, place, date, or historical circumstances, or any background to the consolidation of this group.

However intriguing and interesting as these descriptions might be, we can not substantiate them on any historical or philological evidence: no Hebrew or Aramaic text before the Common Era or in the first century of the Common Era reveals any data about this perfect group that lived according to the highest ideals of freedom, equality, communality, modesty, chastity and liberty. No Hebrew or Aramaic text mentioned such a faultless group numbering thousands of people spread all over the country. No Jewish source written in Hebrew or Aramaic ever mentioned the existence of this celibate group that lived in opposition to the biblical commandment which demanded marriage and procreation from all members of Jewish society. No Hebrew source mentions a group that rejected slavery, denounced weapons, and resented commerce. No Hebrew or Aramaic source is familiar with the word Essenes or Essaioi.

Josephus has taken Philo's Essene philosophical ideal and historicized the Essenes by dating them to specific historical time periods.

And interestingly, is that not the sort of thing that some mythicists believe re 'Paul's cosmic, philosophical/spiritual, Christ figure - that this figure has been historicized in the gospel JC story????

aa5874 · 03-28-2012, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

....Philo created an ideal, philosophical 'community', in the land of Palestine and Syria.

Quote:

Rachel Elior:

The Essenes were first introduced by Philo (d. 50 CE), a first century Jewish scholar who lived in Alexandria. Philo was interested in the ideas of the Stoa and told his readers that there were more than 4,000 Essenes (Essaioi) living in villages throughout the Land of Israel. He maintained that these people had no monetary concerns, lived a very simple, modest life, did not have any earthly possessions, devoted much of their time to study, and observed the Sabbath according to all the strictest instructions. He further noted their love of God, their concerns with piety, honesty, morality, philanthropy, holiness, equality, freedom, and the importance of communal life. He added that the holy Essenes did not marry and lived a celibate life, and practiced communal residence, money, property, food and clothing. He said that they convened in synagogues every Sabbath and studied the law according to philosophical and allegorical interpretations. He maintained that these people cherished freedom, possessed no slaves, and resented the use of weapons or participation in commerce. Philo did not mention any name, place, date, or historical circumstances, or any background to the consolidation of this group.

However intriguing and interesting as these descriptions might be, we can not substantiate them on any historical or philological evidence: no Hebrew or Aramaic text before the Common Era or in the first century of the Common Era reveals any data about this perfect group that lived according to the highest ideals of freedom, equality, communality, modesty, chastity and liberty. No Hebrew or Aramaic text mentioned such a faultless group numbering thousands of people spread all over the country. No Jewish source written in Hebrew or Aramaic ever mentioned the existence of this celibate group that lived in opposition to the biblical commandment which demanded marriage and procreation from all members of Jewish society. No Hebrew source mentions a group that rejected slavery, denounced weapons, and resented commerce. No Hebrew or Aramaic source is familiar with the word Essenes or Essaioi.

Josephus has taken Philo's Essene philosophical ideal and historicized the Essenes by dating them to specific historical time periods...

You now provide Rachel's statement that destroys her claim that Josephus invented the Essenes.

Any reasonable person knows that once Philo was the FIRST to use the name Essenes and if there were NO actual Essenes then it was Philo who INVENTED the Essenes.

And you very well know that is completely erroneous that Philo did NOT mention where the Essenes lived.

"Hipothetica Apology to the Jews"

Quote:

And they dwell in many cities of Judaea, and in many villages, and in great and populous communities...

And Pliny the Elder.

Quote:

"To the west (of the Dead Sea) the Essenes have put the necessary distance between themselves and the insalubrious shore. They are a people unique of its kind and admirable beyond all others in the whole world...

Why are you on a mission to discredit your source for Antigonus???

maryhelena · 03-28-2012, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

....Philo created an ideal, philosophical 'community', in the land of Palestine and Syria.

Quote:

Rachel Elior:

The Essenes were first introduced by Philo (d. 50 CE), a first century Jewish scholar who lived in Alexandria. Philo was interested in the ideas of the Stoa and told his readers that there were more than 4,000 Essenes (Essaioi) living in villages throughout the Land of Israel. He maintained that these people had no monetary concerns, lived a very simple, modest life, did not have any earthly possessions, devoted much of their time to study, and observed the Sabbath according to all the strictest instructions. He further noted their love of God, their concerns with piety, honesty, morality, philanthropy, holiness, equality, freedom, and the importance of communal life. He added that the holy Essenes did not marry and lived a celibate life, and practiced communal residence, money, property, food and clothing. He said that they convened in synagogues every Sabbath and studied the law according to philosophical and allegorical interpretations. He maintained that these people cherished freedom, possessed no slaves, and resented the use of weapons or participation in commerce. Philo did not mention any name, place, date, or historical circumstances, or any background to the consolidation of this group.

However intriguing and interesting as these descriptions might be, we can not substantiate them on any historical or philological evidence: no Hebrew or Aramaic text before the Common Era or in the first century of the Common Era reveals any data about this perfect group that lived according to the highest ideals of freedom, equality, communality, modesty, chastity and liberty. No Hebrew or Aramaic text mentioned such a faultless group numbering thousands of people spread all over the country. No Jewish source written in Hebrew or Aramaic ever mentioned the existence of this celibate group that lived in opposition to the biblical commandment which demanded marriage and procreation from all members of Jewish society. No Hebrew source mentions a group that rejected slavery, denounced weapons, and resented commerce. No Hebrew or Aramaic source is familiar with the word Essenes or Essaioi.

Josephus has taken Philo's Essene philosophical ideal and historicized the Essenes by dating them to specific historical time periods...

You now provide Rachel's statement that destroys her claim that Josephus invented the Essenes.

Any reasonable person knows that once Philo was the FIRST to use the name Essenes and if there were NO actual Essenes then it was Philo who INVENTED the Essenes.

And you very well know that is completely erroneous that Philo did NOT mention where the Essenes lived.

"Hipothetica Apology to the Jews"

Quote:

And they dwell in many cities of Judaea, and in many villages, and in great and populous communities...

And Pliny the Elder.

Quote:

"To the west (of the Dead Sea) the Essenes have put the necessary distance between themselves and the insalubrious shore. They are a people unique of its kind and admirable beyond all others in the whole world...

Why are you on a mission to discredit your source for Antigonus???

aa - people can make, can write, any statement that takes their fancy. You need some historical evidence, coins, artifacts, if you want to maintain that Philo's Essenes are historical and not a philosophical, Utopian, ideal.

And I'm not on a mission to discredit Josephus - I'm going along with some of that recent scholarly research that speaks of Josephus as a prophetic historian.

As for Antigonus - we have the Hasmonean coins - and Cassius Dio.

aa5874 · 03-28-2012, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

..aa - people can make, can write, any statement that takes their fancy. You need some historical evidence, coins, artifacts, if you want to maintain that Philo's Essenes are historical and not a philosophical, Utopian, ideal...

But, you appear to be just doing the very same thing. You make statements that can be easily shown to be erroneous based on the same sources you use.

Please, you know that I am simply stating that WE HAVE three sources that mentioned the Essenes lived in Judea--Philo, Josephus and Pliny and that it could NOT be Josephus who invented the Essenes once they were FIRST mentioned by Philo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

..And I'm not on a mission to discredit Josephus - I'm going along with some of that recent scholarly research that speaks of Josephus as a prophetic historian.

As for Antigonus - we have the Hasmonean coins - and Cassius Dio.

Well, Cassius Dio mentioned Josephus and depicted him as a credible character.

Vorkosigan · 03-28-2012, 08:50 PM

Why not go to the source, Elior and other scholars on ANE

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ANE-2/message/10223

maryhelena · 03-28-2012, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

Why not go to the source, Elior and other scholars on ANE

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ANE-2/message/10223

Thanks, Vork. I did not post a link because the original posting, by Rachel Elior, was on Jim West's old blog - and that blog is no more.

The copies I have of her two statements that were on Jim West's old blog - are from a Word document that Rachel Elior emailed to me.

03-28-2012, 01:10 AM	#1
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Not an Ehrman thread: Did Xtians edit Josephus' account of the Essenes? I re-opened my NT blog after a multi-year hiatus. Yeah! For my first post I ran with the idea of a net-friend, Sid Green, who argues that if you look at Hippolytus' account of the Essenes, it appears that Xtians must have edited Josephus' account. Post is here: http://michaelturton2.blogspot.com/2...christian.html Vorkosigan

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03-28-2012, 02:53 AM	#3
tanya Banned Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: middle east Posts: 829	Thank you Vorkosigan, the spider is fantastic! I appreciate the link, maryhelena. It was a terrific thread. From what I scanned at that link, it appears that, as with Vork's blog, the emphasis in that thread is on Josephus. I am more interested in the archaeological evidence, and in particular, I am puzzled by the HUGE aqueducts constructed to bring fresh water to Qumran. Who could have built them, if there had been no permanent residents living there? There is also the question of the clay used in constructing the jars used to hold the thousands of documents. That clay comes, at least in part, from mountains, many kilometers removed from Qumran, suggesting a big effort, to manufacture those jars. I obviously don't know if there were "Essenes", but someone was living there.

03-28-2012, 08:50 PM	#9
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Why not go to the source, Elior and other scholars on ANE http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ANE-2/message/10223

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