Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 03-12-2006, 09:41 PM

Jesus the Magician: Charlatan or Son of God? by Morton Smith is a necessary source.

Buster Daily · 03-12-2006, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Jesus the Magician: Charlatan or Son of God? by Morton Smith is a necessary source.

If you have time, please outline the author's position.

Utu · 03-12-2006, 09:47 PM

Here's a list of books and articles:

http://faculty.washington.edu/snoegel/jmbtoc.htm

Here's a website with bibliography:

http://www.cs.utk.edu/~mclennan/BA/index.html

I think the first link will be more useful.

NZSkep · 03-13-2006, 02:36 AM

you want the truth? here you go

http://media.putfile.com/familyguymagictrick

xaxxat · 03-13-2006, 04:32 AM

There is a video floating around called "The Magic of Jesus" by magicians Barry and Stuart from the show Dirty Tricks. It was broadcast on BBC's channel 4. They walk on water, turn water into wine, beer, coffee, etc. They make it easy to see how an accomplished magician could fool a bunch of goat herders...

Dargo · 03-13-2006, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xaxxat

There is a video floating around called "The Magic of Jesus" by magicians Barry and Stuart from the show Dirty Tricks. It was broadcast on BBC's channel 4. They walk on water, turn water into wine, beer, coffee, etc. They make it easy to see how an accomplished magician could fool a bunch of goat herders...

Especially considering that the formations of legends could have greatly exagerated the original simple illusions. The feeding of the 5,000 might have started out as simple slight of hand trick that eventually grew into this absurd story.

A similar example is the legendary Indian rope trick. A Hindu holy man supposedly climbs a rope floating in the air and then completely disappears. Magicians today believe the stories are perhaps based on a real trick but highly exagerated.

andrewcriddle · 03-13-2006, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buster Daily

Quote:

Jesus the Magician: Charlatan or Son of God? by Morton Smith is a necessary source.

If you have time, please outline the author's position.

Morton Smith argues that Jesus was (by the standards of his day) a magician/sorcerer.

Andrew Criddle

Clivedurdle · 03-13-2006, 01:25 PM

Link here has very useful introduction

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=153087

And don't forget JG Frazer and Anthropology!

Quote:

ditorial Reviews
From Publishers Weekly
In this third volume of the Dark Histories series (edited by William Naphy, who also wrote the first installment, Sex Crimes), witchcraft expert Maxwell-Stuart looks back at witchcraft from its early practitioners in ancient Greece and Rome, to the medieval witch trials, to modern-day Wiccans. As he explains, the very idea of witches and the "magical crimes" of which they might be accused varied over the centuries. In the Greek and Roman worlds, magic was "ubiquitous," but its practitioners lacked a coherent ideology; modern-day Wiccans, on the other hand, focus on beliefs (e.g., pantheism and neo-paganism) rather than practice. Maxwell-Stuart does an especially fine job of considering the relationship between the early Christian church and pagan magic, demonstrating that initially, magic was accommodated into the church’s developing theology; only later did magic and heresy become nearly synonymous. Scholarly but eminently readable, this is a sophisticated introduction to a fascinating subject.
Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.

Clivedurdle · 03-13-2006, 01:31 PM

I would reverse the question and ask about the influences of magical thinking on the invention of Jesus.

Couple of examples, virgin birth, raising of the dead, bread into flesh, wine into blood, God becoming man.

Alchemy!

Steven Avery · 03-16-2006, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Morton Smith argues that Jesus was (by the standards of his day) a magician/sorcerer.

Hmmm.. interesting. Would it help his argument if someone found an ancient manuscript purporting to go back to the apostolic days looking at Jesus in that way ?

03-12-2006, 09:47 PM	#23
Utu Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Washington Posts: 250	Some links Here's a list of books and articles: http://faculty.washington.edu/snoegel/jmbtoc.htm Here's a website with bibliography: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~mclennan/BA/index.html I think the first link will be more useful.

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03-12-2006, 09:41 PM	#21
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Jesus the Magician: Charlatan or Son of God? by Morton Smith is a necessary source.

03-13-2006, 02:36 AM	#24
NZSkep Contributor Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: auckland nz Posts: 18,090	you want the truth? here you go http://media.putfile.com/familyguymagictrick

03-13-2006, 04:32 AM	#25
xaxxat Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Space Station 33 Posts: 2,543	There is a video floating around called "The Magic of Jesus" by magicians Barry and Stuart from the show Dirty Tricks. It was broadcast on BBC's channel 4. They walk on water, turn water into wine, beer, coffee, etc. They make it easy to see how an accomplished magician could fool a bunch of goat herders...

03-13-2006, 01:31 PM	#29
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	I would reverse the question and ask about the influences of magical thinking on the invention of Jesus. Couple of examples, virgin birth, raising of the dead, bread into flesh, wine into blood, God becoming man. Alchemy!

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