Phlox Pyros

Hello, oh ye learned people of the IIDB forums. Was Jesus a magician?

I am about to embark on a quest to study magic in and around the time of Jesus. Any serious references would be much appreciated. Of course, I am familiar with Morton Smith's controversial "Jesus the Magician" (though I'm not sure about its reliability...is it a worthwhile source?).

So, what evidence can you provide (net or otherwise) to demostrate that Jesus was or was not likely to have been a magician?

(Interesting side tangent: 'Ancient Christian Magic' by Meyer and Smith is a good source of 'magical' texts of the Coptic/Gnostic sort. One incantation (#36) mentions seven archangels: Gabriel, Michael, Raphael, Saruel, Raguel, Nuriel, and Anael. For another spell in the same book, the editors state: "The reference to "the seven" in the Coptic section must indicate the seven spheres of the sky." Possibly, but I wonder if the reference might more likely be to "The Seven" archangels. Here is the text: "Greetings, god of Abraham; greetings, god of Isaac, god of Jacob; Jesus the upright, the holy spirit, the son of the father, who is below the seven, who is within the seven." Is the "son" below/within the archangels, or the spheres, tough call?

Anyway, I also wonder if the seven named archangels above are the same as "the seven" mentioned in Revelation 1:4: "John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne..." Are these seven the seven archangels? Are these the angels of the seven churches in Asia? Does anyone know of earlier sources of the angels names or stories of the angels? Are their names always the same?)

dajumbles

Could you define 'magician'? If you mean a person who is an illusionist, then no He isnt, if you mean a person who practices witchcraft, then no He is not, if you mean a person who genuinly performs miracles, the yes He is.

P.S. I say 'is' because I believe Jesus is still alive today in Heaven

Phlox Pyros

Unfortunately, it is a tough thing to define 'magician'.... However, it would be similar to Simon Magus (of the book of Acts) and others of the time period like him. They would have practiced magic similar to that found in the many ancient 'magical papyri'. I'd like to find out more about where I can read these, etc., and especially where I can find out more about how to understand their contents.

Interestingly, many ancient "magical spells" sound very similar to modern prayers and invocations meant to restore health, etc. So, is it really fair to call it "magic"? I don't know, but that's neither here nor there.

Thanks, and I understand and very much appreciate your concern for the souls of others. However, I am looking for scholarly-type information and not proselytizing.

dajumbles

Jesus was not a magician He was God! I mean like the God who created the universe God, the God who could think a word, and the world would end, the God who has complete dominion over every thing in the world. This goes without messing with free will.

Ben C Smith

The seven archangels were part of Jewish apocalypticism. Let us start with Tobit 12.15:

I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the holy one.

Revelation 8.1-6 is obviously based on this motif:

When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets. Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel's hand. Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake. So the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Enoch 20 names all seven angels of the presence:

And these are the names of the holy angels who watch: Uriel, one of the holy angels, who is over the world and over Tartarus; Raphael, one of the holy angels, who is over the spirits of men; Raguel, one of the holy angels who takes vengeance on the world of the luminaries; Michael, one of the holy angels, to wit, he that is set over the best part of mankind and over chaos; Saraqâêl, one of the holy angels, who is set over the spirits, who sin in the spirit; Gabriel, one of the holy angels, who is over paradise and the serpents and the cherubim; Remiel, one of the holy angels, whom God set over those who rise.

Note that the Greek version explicitly calls these watching spirits archangels (αρχαγγελων). These named angels sometimes show up individually, as in 4 Ezra 5.20:

So I fasted seven days, mourning and weeping, as Uriel the angel had commanded me.

Also refer to Daniel 8.16; 9.21; 10.13, 21; 12.1; Luke 1.19, 26; 1 Thessalonians 4.16; Jude 1, 9; Revelation 12.7; 4 Ezra 4.1; 10.28.

Later writings, like your magical incantation, also name the seven angels, but I am not very familiar with the later stuff. I think that, of the seven names, only three or four of them are consistent. The rest of the names may vary.

Ben.

hatsoff

I think you'd have to do some background studying of ancient magicians to even begin to answer that question, or to understand an answer given. Unless you already have?

I have not, so I'm a poor uneducated layman.

Phlox Pyros

Ben, thanks for the great post. That is exactly the kind of information I'm looking for, at least with respect to Angelology. I read Enoch 20 in full just now from Charlesworth's Pseudepigrapha, but I have never read the whole thing. I'm curious if you know...does it shed a lot of light on the cryptic book of Revelation?

If you know anything about ancient magic, please put in your two cents.

Phlox Pyros

Nope, I haven't much. But that is what I'm looking for...someone with a background of study in ancient magic who can present some good online/offline resources for study. There are some very knowledgeable people in this forum, so I'm sure there is someone with some knowledge in this area.

Thomas II

Now that you mention it, during the wedding at Canaan Jesus apparently transformed regular water into a first rate wine...
A magical act?... Suggestion?...A miracle by a god?...
Take your pick...
Did it happen at all?
Suppose it did happen...
If you believe Jesus is a god, then he did a miracle.
If you don't believe he is god...what did he do then?

Phlox Pyros

I'm attempting a serious study of ancient mediterranean 'magic'. Thanks. Any scholarly online/offline references are welcome.