Ojuice5001

Although I don't think Yahweh is the one true god, I do agree with those Christian apologists who argue that Jewish thinking had certain unique ideas, which the Jews gave to the Christian and Islamic civilizations. (Some of these ideas and their consequences have been good, and some bad. I'd welcome the chance to undo large parts of the changes, and return Italy and Florida to pre-Christian paganism.) One of these claimed uniquenesses is right there at the beginning of he Bible--creation ex nihilo.

Pagan creation myths portray the gods shaping some preexistent substance into the world we see. The gods themselves are also subject to the preexistent nature they are confronted with. Only the Jewish creation myth has a god who creates things out of nothing.

What do you think? Is this claim even accurate? Why is it that the Jews, and only the Jews, thought of origins this way? What were the philosophical consequences of this belief? Which way of thinking about the origins of the world is more reasonable?

beastmaster

According to the NIV, Genesis 1 does not describe an ex nihilo creation at all.

According to the NIV Study notes, Gen 1:1 ("In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.") is a summary statement that describes the whole section. It is not a separate or independent act of ex nihilo creation.

Rather, the NIV annotators claim that the acts of creation begin with Gen 1:2 ("The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.") Thus, according to this view, God's first creative act is "let there be light." God took a preexisting formless earth covered in water, illuminated it, and reshaped it into the present creation.

I have no knowledge of ancient Hebrew, but based on reading the English translations, the NIV's interpretation seems plausible. Anyone care to address the NIV's view?

spin

The first word of Genesis, BR'$YT (bereshit) is made up of preposition B- (locative), and noun, R'$YT ("beginning"). Now this beginning in Hebrew needs qualification, which is supplied with a clause:

In the beginning of the creation by God of the heavens and the earth

or

In the beginning of God's creating the heavens and the earth

or even (to render the idea)

In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth

Next we get a continuation of what things were like at that beginning:

And the earth was without form and void; and darkness to the face of the deep and the wind of God moving on the face of the waters

It is in these conditions that God starts his creation, first saying "Let there be light..." and each creative day starts with God enunciating and it coming into being, so the first day of the week of creation begins, just like all the rest, with God speaking. What comes before that speaking is before the creation, ie starting conditions.

In the beginning of God's creating the heavens and the earth, when (Hebrew "and") the earth was without form and void; and darkness to the face of the deep and the wind of God moving on the face of the waters; God said, "Let there be light" and light was turned on for the creation.


spin

Amos

It doesn't matter much because man was created in the existing image of God and out of dust he was formed and continues to be re-formed out of the same dust after the pre-existing image of God that is renewed each generation (whether we realise this or not).

spin

Umm, you may have been formed out of the dust, but my mother gave birth to me (whether you realise this or not).


spin

Kosh

No. I think Amos was formed out of a nice hashish paste....

Amos

But dust is dust is dust and all that keeps your dust together is the revised image of God after which man is re-created.

Doctor X

Ojuice5001:

You are correct. However you wish to consider "create" in the passage--as in "at the time Elohim created/was creating"--you STILL have the "waters of the deep" pre-existing. An earth sitting in primordial waters is an OLD mythic motif.

Indeed, elsewhere I have posted Westerman's discussion on how the word originally meant "cut" or "separate"--as in "separated the heavens from the earth." This is similarly an old conception more in tune with the older "creation" myths.

Spin:

--J.D.

spin

The only dust that I see at the moment is the bulldust you're moving.

The tangent off the tangent off the tangent gets a bit too far from the topic for my liking. Once again flow of consciousness strikes terror into logic which flees the scene of the crime and all that remains is quivering gelatinous mass that once was brain......

Man made in the image of this trinitarian god, doh, sounds like a schizophrenic result to me.....

Man made out of dust? White powder in lines. How's your septum? Septum, what septum?

Now, where were we? Ahh, yes, the fine pursuit of that late idea imposed upon the Hebrew bible known as creatio ex nihilo


spin


Can't even spell "white". Hey pass it round, pass it round.

spin

So, what was the world created out of if it weren't creatio ex nihilo?

First let's look a little at a text which seems to feature evidence of the source used by the Gen 1 writer, the Enuma Elish ("When on high...").

Marduk that great semitic creator god slew the watery chaos dragon Tiamat with the aid of a divine wind and with the carcass of Tiamat, which he slit in half, raising the top half up to place the waters above and holding it up with a bolt and, out of the other half of the watery chaos, he drew everything out for his creation.

Elohim that great Hebrew creator god, well, did something with the deep (tehom = Tiamat) with the aid of a divine wind and then separated the waters (ie tehom), raising half of it up to place the waters above and holding it up with the firmament and, out of the other half of the watery chaos, he drew everything out for his creation.

Yes, indeed, it seems like God created the cosmos out of the waters. How does the dry world of the second creation fit into this? It doesn't of course. It's a different story.


spin