R P McMurphy

Hello Everyone,

I'm a newbie here, but I really like the threads and discussions I am reading. Clearly the people who post here are a cut above the average.

I am on a quest. I want to determine what the writer of Revelation had in his mind when he wrote the famous Mark of the Beast passage.

For folks who have not dug into this particular mystery let me say that it is NOT a simple matter. The problem turns into a labyrinth. I have explored several lines and have some progress and suspicions of my own but not that I would feel so confident as to really defend them, so don't savage me, I'm just exploring, not Preaching. Please note, I am NOT a believer, and no "faith" based explanation will do for me in this problem.

What say you? What is the significance of the Mark of the Beast as a number (666)? Why did the writer use this number? Is this number a part of a previously existing tradition? Is it a "secret" message in Revelations? Is it a "code"?

Any opinion based on some kind of evidence is welcome,

Thanks,

R.P. McMurphy

Doctor X

DAMN! Why do I always visit this section when I am not around my books. . . .

R. P. McMurphy:

Welcome, and apologies, but I will have to find the references. Most likely someone "with understanding" will bury me in them prior to the time.

There are actually two numbers: 666 and 616. "616" is a variant in some of the textual witnesses.

Now here pull out a few bags of salt because I am "winging" it: the name "Nero" comes out to two different numbers, numerologically, whether you spell it in Greek or Latin. One is 666--the Greek methinks . . . the other is 616.

Now, for reasons I do not recall and I will have to consult "da books" scholars argue that the author is using "Nero" to symbolize Dominitian.

Right, you may want to search through the articles on this web site because I would be very surprised if someone did not write an article on this.

Now, for the identity of the JFK assassin, you merely need to

--J.D.

Toto

Welcome RP.

I thought everyone agreed that 666 was the numerological value associated with the Emperor Nero. (616 is the value if the letters are Hebrew instead of Greek.)

The number of the beast

What makes you unsatisfied with this explanation?

Doctor X

Not bad . . . took only eleven minutes.

Toto:

Sorry, but the idea of "Gee, probably someone has written this before" hit me after composing my missive. I had not heard of the "Hebrew" spelling, but I am basing the above on rather old, crusty memory. Thanks for the link, I will check it out.

I had also thought that some argued that while it means "Nero" it is suppose to symbolize the contemporary "Dominitian"--"another horrible Emperor!" sort of thing, but I would have to hit the references again.

--J.D.

Mageth

I want to determine what the writer of Revelation had in his mind when he wrote the famous Mark of the Beast passage.

What did he have in his mind? What kinds of hallucinogenic drugs were available to him on Patmos?

Doctor X

Well . . . someone has to recommend it:

Apocamon!

--J.D.

YHWHtruth

Since the Bible is a book of both history and prophecy, the numbers given therein may be either literal or symbolic. The context usually reveals in which sense a number is used. Certain numbers appear often in the Bible in an illustrative, figurative, or symbolic sense, and in such cases an understanding of their significance is vital to an understanding of the text. However, this Bible usage of numbers should not be confused with numerology, in which occult mysticism is attached to figures, their combinations, and numerical totals. Numerology apparently had its origin in ancient Babylon and, along with other forms of divination, comes under divine condemnation. De 18:10-12.

Max

Doctor X

And?

--J.D.

Doctor X

Toto:

You link explains it as I recall it with conversion of Greek=666 and Latin=616 into the Hebrew numerology.

I think based on the probable date of the text, some scholars argue it is Domitian--which any one should "infer" by a reference to a "bad emperor."

However, accoring to Burton Mack:

--J.D.

References:

Mack BL. Who Wrote the New Testament? The Making of the Christian Myth. New York: Harper Collins, 1995.

Collins AY. Crisis and Catharsis: The Power of Apocalypse. Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1984.

Amos

Hi R P

In my view the 666 is the number of "the man" and the number for the beast that belongs to "that certain man" but is not given.

Let me read to you verse 18: " A certain wisdom is needed here: with a little ingenuity anyone can calculate the number of the beast, for it is a number that stands for a certain man. The man's number is six hundred and sixty six."

So I make a distinction between "man" and "a certain man" and because some ingenuity is required to calculate the number of this "certain man" it would not be the number that is given here.

Two numbers are needed because there are two different beast in the likeness of man. The first one came out of the sea and the second one came out of the earth. The first one that came out of the sea was born of God and bears the stigmate to prove that its mortal wounds have been healed. This will be the redeemed man with the number 666 which now become the most welcome number anybody could ever hope to receive. It is given to those who are born at midnight, midwinter and midlife to warrant the three sixes.

The second beast that came out of the [old] earth doesn't see this difference because it was born from carnal desire (based on Jn.1:13), and will crucify the son of man time and time again while worshipping the beast they once had crucified.

I can give you a litany of evidence but it should be noted that the first beast was shaped by the seven sacraments and had victory over the ten commandements (he who is in Christ cannot sin). It also had done its time in purgatory which is to last no more than 42 months. The second beast is torn in the paradox sinful yet saved and will remain unworthy because of sin.