inquisitive01

Notice how the section 3. THE USE OF SLAVES IN NEW TESTAMENT TIMES has seemingly either been overlooked or ignored by Angrillori. Some points not covered in Angrillori's post include the following:

1). Selling oneself as a slave was commonly used as a means of gaining Roman citizenship.

2). The Apostle Paul respected the civil law and the social patterns of his day, and did not militate against the law of slavery.

3). We must remember that the Bible acknowledges the existence of institutions which it does not necessarily approve, including polygamy and slavery.

4). In Christ, all are one; there is no bond or free (Galatians 3:38; Ephesians 6:9).

Not to mention the willing servants (such as those in #1 above, as well as others who bound themselves to serve).

Angrillori

Irrelevant. The fact that some slaves may have sold themselves in no way lessens the moral bankruptcy of slavery as an institution. Plus, Hebrew and OT slavery existed before the Roman empire. Argue all you want, god approved slavery before the time when you're alleging it was so "good." To alleviate the biblical god's moral bankruptcy you have to deal with his endorsement of slavery ("Can we take slaves?" God: "Hell yeah, as long as they aren't Israelites!") before the NT too.

(Plus: I can't believe you're saying that slavery is ok because some people sold themselves into it.)

Which is also irrelevant since we're considering god's morality, not Paul's. And if Paul was so afraid of challenging existing institutions, why was he executed? Speaking of which, why was Jesus executed? Or any of the others. No, it seems this apologetic: "God (or his followers) was too scared to try to overturn institutions of the day." fails before it gets out the gate.

I believe that's been dealt with. The bible doesn't just recognize, it condones explicitly. "May we have slaves?" "Yes, just as long as they aren't Israelites."

So now they're not even slaves....uhmmm...ok. Then how about you come to my house work for me, for free, where I'll will you to my children, beat you until you can't stand for two days, and you have no choice to leave. Hey, you'll be "free in Christ!"

#1) The fact that some sold themselves into slavery says nothing about the condition of slaves as a whole, or whether the initial sale was coerced or free.
#2) I still can't believe you think slavery is ok because some people sold themselves into slavery. ?!?!?!?

inquisitive01

It's the old "irrelevant" argument again, which can be translated into "it's irrelevant for me because I don't believe."

Sounds like a child talking.


I have no control over what people chose to do at that time based on quite a few factors (which you don't seem to want to acknowledge), one of which could include desperation. What lengths would you go to if you were ever truly desperate?

But you won't even give it a chance to enter the gate in the first place because you don't believe (MEANING: Why are you here if you feel nothing will ever change that? Having doubts in your beliefs?).

You "believe?" What if you're wrong, or what if it hasn't been dealt with sufficiently by you?

It seems that what some choose to believe is different (perhaps more convenient? :thumbs: ) than what some others may believe.


I guess your post "says something" about the condition of slaves as a whole? Where's your stats (btw, I hope their more complete than the "prison" stats)?


Again, IF a person had too much hardship to face alone, and IF this person was bound (by his/her own will) to another who would help relieve this hardship/burden as a form of appreciation for taking care of it, then I have no control over that person's will to do so.

Gullwind

Please, please, PLEASE explain how on earth an individual who may have no other recourse and allows himself to be enslaved in order to survive (which did happen) in any way justifies the capture and purchase of other human beings who did not choose that way of life.

Are you suggesting that all slaves chose that status? That slavery wouldn't have existed if those enslaved hadn't chosen to be slaves?

inquisitive01

No, I'm not suggesting that all slaves chose that status. The slavery you're referring to (capturing slaves, rather than them volunteering) is what I would consider as a choice to abuse slavery by humans. This is NOT the same as a voluntary submission into slavery, which was necessary for some in order to survive... the only options to this (for survival) might include stealing (under more severe penalties than that of today) or even suicide.

BlakeEM

I don't see the word voluntary in there, you're just making this up :rolling:

Property, we are talking about people being someone else’s property...

Gullwind

What about the purchase of slaves who may or may not have "volunteered"? God's law says you can purchase slaves. It does not specify that they have to have volunteered to be slaves in the first place. You'd think an important detail like that would have been specifically mentioned if that is actually what was meant.

blt to go

A lurker pops in.....

May I remind you that the question is whether God Condones Slavery.
I find this differentiation between "capturing" and "vounteering" as quaint. Let's see how god views "Volunteering":

O.K. Fair enough. Appears they volunteered. What if they don't? Are they then captured? Well.....no, actually:

So, inquisitive01, to at least some extent, you are right that god approves of slavery that is voluntary. Otherwise he kills you. And your wife, kids, family, "and you little dog Toto, too..."

Angrillori

Or can be translated that it's irrelevant because, well, it's irrelevant.

Of course, god did have control. When asked:

"Can we have slaves?"

He said:

"Yes."

Isn't that giving permission? Sounds like giving permission to me. Isn't it?

"Can I have a cookie?"

"Yes."

"Can I have slaves?"

"Yes."

Since you asked, I'm here because you amuse me. Belief in god did enter the gate. Then, when I saw it was absolutely absurd in the extreme, it left again. This time propelled by my foot in its figurative arse.

That said:

Ownership of other human beings is wrong.
Owning other human beings for their life with no way for them to leave of their own free will, is wrong.
Being able to pass these people on, as property, to my children, so they don't get out of being a slave just because I die, is wrong.
Being able to treat your slaves ruthlessly as long as they are not Israelites, is wrong.
Being able to beat your slaves until they cannot stand for two days without repurcussion, is wrong.

Nevertheless, your god explicitly gives permission to do all of these acts. And never once condemns them.
Then people have the audacity to claim that their god is a benevolent or moral god, and that our morality should be based on its.
That, is disgusting, and none of your:

"Slavery isn't bad because some slaves had it good." or
"Slavery isn't bad, because everyone was doing it." or
"Slavery wasn't bad because some people had to sell themselves into it."

Advance your theory that Slavery was good.

Yeah, lets talk about that again!

Have you found any, ANY, ANY statistics that show that atheists commit sinful acts as much as, or more than christians?

Right now the score stands:

Atheists commit sinful acts less than christians: 1
Atheists commit sinful acts more than christians: 0

That's right, 0.

Your assertion has so far mustered a whole 0 amount of support. So, even if I hadn't posted ANYTHING the score would be 0-0, and your assertion would STILL fail due to lack of support. As it is the counter-claim, that people disbelieve in order to sin LESS, and in order to be MORE moral, stands because at least it shows some support.

So, we're still waiting. And, sadly, I imagine we'll keep waiting, that is, unless you'd like to present some evidence!

Bound to? What the heck is this. The bible is pretty clear the words you should be using are "Owned by."

Furthermore, once again you're trying to convince us that slavery is good because some people were driven into it by having too much hardship to face alone. I guess god couldn't just, you know, order his preists/disciples to help eh? Or, you know, encourage his disciples to help a person deal with their hardship without OWNING THEM!

AND, of course, the route some slaves took to become slaves is entirely irrelevant to the bankruptcy of slavery of an institution.

BlakeEM

I gave my boss a list of all the most messed up quotes I could find. Killing children, pro slavery, racism, etc... He’s catholic and is going to ask his priest for me what they mean haha... :rolling:

Will keep you posted what he says (if he doesn’t try to avoid the subject entirely)