Freethought & Rationalism Archive

BlakeEM · 08-26-2004, 04:08 PM

Ok I write up this post for a bible site they had a section for atheists/agnostics etc to ask questions to Christians.

So I made a big post and posted many bible quotes asking what people thought they meant. I got all the worse quotes in the bible I can find that are pro slavery, anti women’s rights, about murder of children (even where Jesus says he would murder children for things their parents have done) and god being “very mean�? to people. I honestly asked their opinion of them.

As soon as I posted it my post was removed and I was banned from the forum. What’s with that? I simply posted quotes from the bible asking what they thought they meant. I guess they took offence to stuff written in their own holy book.

So they not only ignore and logic, but they even ignore words in their own holy book? I noticed many Christians only seem to believe the parts they choose in the bible and they totally ignore everything else like it doesn’t exist.

inquisitive01 · 08-26-2004, 04:42 PM

Women's rights? Are you serious? Equality for women only happened recently within the last Century (remember women's lib?). Therefore, are you saying perhaps your grandfather or great-grandfather were also "bad" seeing how women's rights were not exactly "on the table" when they lived either?

Slavery is another example of the same thing . . . . something that wasn't thought of as "bad" until fairly recent in history.

Do you perhaps still have all of those Verses you posted on that "other forum" (I guess that's what you meant). If so, why not post them so everyone doesn't just have to take your word for what they say. :huh:

Angrillori · 08-26-2004, 04:53 PM

So...Inq. are you saying there is no objective standard of good and evil? That good and evil are all relative to time and place?

Or is slavery still good, and should women still be treated as inferior beings to men? Or is god allowed to change the objective standards of good and evil based upon what his followers think is good and evil?

Hmmm?

inquisitive01 · 08-26-2004, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angrillori

So...Inq. are you saying there is no objective standard of good and evil? That good and evil are all relative to time and place?

Or is slavery still good, and should women still be treated as inferior beings to men? Or is god allowed to change the objective standards of good and evil based upon what his followers think is good and evil?

Hmmm?

You used the words "good" and "evil." I simply said that it was not always regarded (by people, not God) as a bad thing, but was part of the norm.

Angrillori · 08-26-2004, 06:22 PM

So...why did god put it in the bible as right? Just because it was regarded as right by the people that were around when it was written?

If that's the case, _was_ it actually right back then? Or was it wrong, and god just condoned it because it's ok for god to condone something that's wrong, as long as everyone else is doing it?

Either we SHOULD be using slavery and treating women as inferior, as the bible says, (if its actually objectively right)

Or, the people back then SHOULDN'T have been using slavery and treating women as inferior and god just said those were right because, well, he didn't want to go against the flow (if it's objectively wrong)

Or, because everyone else was doing it then slavery was OK by god, since everyone else was doing it but NOW it's not ok, because, now well, now what's right is a little different than back then, because now most people agree that slavery and treating women like inferior humans is wrong.

inquisitive01 · 08-26-2004, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angrillori

So...why did god put it in the bible as right? Just because it was regarded as right by the people that were around when it was written?

If that's the case, _was_ it actually right back then? Or was it wrong, and god just condoned it because it's ok for god to condone something that's wrong, as long as everyone else is doing it?

Either we SHOULD be using slavery and treating women as inferior, as the bible says, (if its actually objectively right)

Or, the people back then SHOULDN'T have been using slavery and treating women as inferior and god just said those were right because, well, he didn't want to go against the flow (if it's objectively wrong)

Or, because everyone else was doing it then slavery was OK by god, since everyone else was doing it but NOW it's not ok, because, now well, now what's right is a little different than back then, because now most people agree that slavery and treating women like inferior humans is wrong.

Where is slavery or treating women as inferior said to be "OK" by God? Put simply, these were acceptable practices BY PEOPLE back then, similar to how getting drunk is an acceptable practice by people today.

Angrillori · 08-26-2004, 06:41 PM

You're kidding, right?

Angrillori · 08-26-2004, 06:50 PM

Where does god say it's ok to buy slaves? Where does it say slavery is acceptable to god? Well, I think god giving permission to buy and sell slaves counts:

Lev. 25:
44 " 'Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

It's OK to buy and sell slaves! "from them you may buy slaves." It wasn't just acceptable practice by people, it was acceptable practice back then, BY GOD.

Notice how it isn't: "From them you may NOT buy slaves." (But, I guess we can't expect god to condemn slavery. I mean hey, everyone else was doing it right?)

There. I did my part. Now where does it say slavery is wrong?
I showed where god gives permission to buy and sell slaves. Where he says it's ok. Now, your turn. Is there anywhere he counterminds this order?

Oh. He didn't. So....was he wrong then, or are we wrong now? Hmmm?

(And, it's ok for you to run away like the last time you were cornered on the is 'slavery wrong or right' issue. I will of course draw attention to it again though.)

BlakeEM · 08-26-2004, 07:05 PM

ok here are some bible quotes, please try to explain these if you can =)

Here are some good ones...

Quote:

"Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (I Timothy 2:11-14)

Quote:

"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything." (Ephesians 5:22-24)

Quote:

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." (I Corinthians 14:34-35)

Same stuff, this is in the Cathlic bible I belive? (why people choose to take and add parts of the bible they like is beyond me)

Quote:

"Give me any plague, but the plague of the heart: and any wickedness, but the wickedness of a woman." (Eccles. 25:13)

Quote:

"Of the woman came the beginning of sin, and through her we all die." (Eccles. 25:22)

Quote:

"The whoredom of a woman may be known in her haughty looks and eyelids. If thy daughter be shameless, keep her in straitly, lest she abuse herself through overmuch liberty." (Eccles. 26:9-10)

Quote:

"A silent and loving woman is a gift of the Lord: and there is nothing so much worth as a mind well instructed. A shamefaced and faithful woman is a double grace, and her continent mind cannot be valued." (Eccles. 26:14-15)

Quote:

"For from garments cometh a moth, and from women wickedness. Better is the churlishness of a man than a courteous woman, a woman, I say, which bringeth shame and reproach." (Eccles. 42:13-14)

Quote:

"A shameless woman shall be counted as a dog; but she that is shamefaced will fear the Lord." (Eccles.26:25)

This one is about Jesus and that he will kill little children because of their parents actions.

Quote:

"Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works." (Revelation 2:22-23)

This ones about killing witches (Salem witch trials anyone?) God doesn’t only authorize these things but in many cases commands you do do them.

Quote:

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Whoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death. He that sacrificeth unto any god, save to the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed." (Exodus 22:18-20)

In the bible it never says there is one god. All these point to more than one god existing. It only says that he is greater than all other gods.

Quote:

"Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was above them." (Exodus 18:11)

Quote:

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me." (Exodus 20:3)

Quote:

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;" (Exodus 20:5)

Human Sacrifice is ordered by god...

Quote:

"Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me." (Exodus 22:29)

Some hate inspired words of god...

Quote:

"Surely thou will slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men. For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain. Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies." (Psalms 139:19-22)

Quote:

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26)

Now this one I just don't know, but it just seems pretty bad for something you're teaching your children... but that's just me, you know bashing kids against rocks might have been "the thing" way back but I think people's morals changed a little bit.

Quote:

"Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." (Psalms 137:9, KJV)

"How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones Against the rock." (Psalms 137:9, New American Bible)

"Happy the man who shall seize and smash your little ones against the rock!" (Psalms 137:9, New American Bible)

"a blessing on anyone who seizes your babies and shatters them against a rock!" (Psalms 137:9, Jerusalem Bible)

God accepts slavery and the beating of slaves

Quote:

"And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free: Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever." (Exodus 21:5-6)

Quote:

"And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes." (Luke 12:47)

Now this ones a bit scarry

Quote:

"The righteous shall rejoice when he sees the vengeance. He shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked." (Psalms 58:10)

I could also post the many quotes of violence and killing of children and such but I wont bother. Now I leave you with some words of wisdom...

Quote:

"If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart. Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it." (Malachi 2:2-3)

BlakeEM · 08-26-2004, 11:10 PM

Oh just found this, it's pretty bad.

http://www.skeptictank.org/fag-faq.htm

:banghead:

http://www.skeptictank.org

that site has a lotta nice stuff to read.

Some more hate stuff...

Quote:

Matthew Shepherd died on October 9, 1998. He was killed because he was gay. Nine-hundred people attended Matthew Shepherd's funeral in Casper, Wyoming. A dozen more demonstrated with signs proclaiming "God Hates Fags" and "Matt in Hell." These same signs came to Montpelier, Vermont on September 30. There, in front of the State Capital building, in the shadow of Demeter who rests atop the golden dome, a small group of people brought their claim that the "The Bible preaches hate more than love", to the Green Mountains.

http://www.metaphoria.org/ac4t9908.html

08-26-2004, 04:08 PM	#1
BlakeEM Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: San Diego, Ca Posts: 384	How frustrating... Ok I write up this post for a bible site they had a section for atheists/agnostics etc to ask questions to Christians. So I made a big post and posted many bible quotes asking what people thought they meant. I got all the worse quotes in the bible I can find that are pro slavery, anti women’s rights, about murder of children (even where Jesus says he would murder children for things their parents have done) and god being “very mean�? to people. I honestly asked their opinion of them. As soon as I posted it my post was removed and I was banned from the forum. What’s with that? I simply posted quotes from the bible asking what they thought they meant. I guess they took offence to stuff written in their own holy book. So they not only ignore and logic, but they even ignore words in their own holy book? I noticed many Christians only seem to believe the parts they choose in the bible and they totally ignore everything else like it doesn’t exist.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

08-26-2004, 04:42 PM	#2
inquisitive01 Banned Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: East U.S.A. Posts: 883	Women's rights? Are you serious? Equality for women only happened recently within the last Century (remember women's lib?). Therefore, are you saying perhaps your grandfather or great-grandfather were also "bad" seeing how women's rights were not exactly "on the table" when they lived either? Slavery is another example of the same thing . . . . something that wasn't thought of as "bad" until fairly recent in history. Do you perhaps still have all of those Verses you posted on that "other forum" (I guess that's what you meant). If so, why not post them so everyone doesn't just have to take your word for what they say. :huh:

08-26-2004, 04:53 PM	#3
Angrillori Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: A world less bright without WinAce. Posts: 7,482	So...Inq. are you saying there is no objective standard of good and evil? That good and evil are all relative to time and place? Or is slavery still good, and should women still be treated as inferior beings to men? Or is god allowed to change the objective standards of good and evil based upon what his followers think is good and evil? Hmmm?

08-26-2004, 06:22 PM	#5
Angrillori Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: A world less bright without WinAce. Posts: 7,482	So...why did god put it in the bible as right? Just because it was regarded as right by the people that were around when it was written? If that's the case, _was_ it actually right back then? Or was it wrong, and god just condoned it because it's ok for god to condone something that's wrong, as long as everyone else is doing it? Either we SHOULD be using slavery and treating women as inferior, as the bible says, (if its actually objectively right) Or, the people back then SHOULDN'T have been using slavery and treating women as inferior and god just said those were right because, well, he didn't want to go against the flow (if it's objectively wrong) Or, because everyone else was doing it then slavery was OK by god, since everyone else was doing it but NOW it's not ok, because, now well, now what's right is a little different than back then, because now most people agree that slavery and treating women like inferior humans is wrong.

08-26-2004, 06:41 PM	#7
Angrillori Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: A world less bright without WinAce. Posts: 7,482	You're kidding, right?

08-26-2004, 06:50 PM	#8
Angrillori Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: A world less bright without WinAce. Posts: 7,482	Where does god say it's ok to buy slaves? Where does it say slavery is acceptable to god? Well, I think god giving permission to buy and sell slaves counts: Lev. 25: 44 " 'Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly. It's OK to buy and sell slaves! "from them you may buy slaves." It wasn't just acceptable practice by people, it was acceptable practice back then, BY GOD. Notice how it isn't: "From them you may NOT buy slaves." (But, I guess we can't expect god to condemn slavery. I mean hey, everyone else was doing it right?) There. I did my part. Now where does it say slavery is wrong? I showed where god gives permission to buy and sell slaves. Where he says it's ok. Now, your turn. Is there anywhere he counterminds this order? Oh. He didn't. So....was he wrong then, or are we wrong now? Hmmm? (And, it's ok for you to run away like the last time you were cornered on the is 'slavery wrong or right' issue. I will of course draw attention to it again though.)

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.