capnkirk

Moderators: If you decide that this thread belongs on a different forum, please move it (Of course, you will with or without my permission...so this flag only serves to show that I also am unsure just where to ask the question.)

All through Paul's letters, he speaks of the resurrection of the dead at the end of history. I can find no NT reference to the contemporary concept that people's souls go directly into some form of afterlife immediately after death. Though I can readily speculate the mythmaking process that "could" have led to this novel interpretation, I haven't read anything that would tell me where along the way this reinterpretation took place.

__________________
Enterprise...OUT.

judge

There definitely seems to be evidence that Paul did believe this. Try the leter to Phillipi where he says .."to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"

See also 2 Corinthians..."now we know that if our earthly house is destroyed we have another, impersishable in the heavens" (I am parapharsing here).

See also 1 Corinthians 15...."a seed must first die"

See aslo one of Peters letters wher he writes of putting aside his earthly tent.

Think also of the concept of "the dead" they might have had. The dead were seen as going to "the grave" or "sheol". Death was to have been abolished or overcome, thus the deqad were to be resurrected out of "sheol".

Resurrected to where? To Heaven, where else?

Prior to this John tells us .."no man had entered into heaven"

capnkirk

Unfortunately I cannot find the phrase you have quoted anywhere in Philippians...but I did find this:

Here Paul is clearly talking about the conditional resurrection generally associated with the eschaton, not the contemporary automatic resurrection (whether heaven-bound or hell-bound).

This quote is in 2 Cor 5:1, but if you read on down to V 10 he continues: for we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. To apply the immediate resurrection concept to this passage is tortured logic at best because once again, the appearance before the judgment seat is in complete accord with the concept he pronounces in 1 Thess regarding the judgement at the eschaton.

Once again, from 1 Cor 15, beginning with verse 12, Paul describes the resurrection of the dead. In v 21, he continues: For since death came through a man (Christ), the resurrection shall also come through a man. Obvious reference to the return of Christ at the eschaton. v 22: For as in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive, v23:But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits: then, when he comes, those who belong to him. v24: Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God. IMHO, all the above passages are utterly consistent in the concept of resurrection for Xtians only at the eschaton.

In view of the results of your previous references, this one will have to wait until you can quote specific chapte and verse.

The Hebrew concept of Sheol had NO expectations of an afterlife until after the Hebrews' exposure to Zoroastrianism during the Exile. And it is exactly the Zoroastrian concept of resurrection of the dead at the end of history (the eschaton) that was still a bone of contention between Pharisees and Sadducees in Jesus' time...and was the concept picked up by Paul from the HB, so the question remains...when did that concept get revised? My best guess right now is that it happened after the last canonical book of the NT was written, and it was accomplished by creative reading of scripture like you just offered to me.

Now understand this passage in light of the above. If the resurrection does not occur until the eschaton, then this statement makes perfect sense.

__________________
Enterprise...OUT.

Hazel-rah

I don't usually jump into BC&H threads, but this popped into my head:

(Luke 23:39-43 NIV) One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!" {40} But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? {41} We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong." {42} Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." {43} Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

judge

My bad..it also is in 2 cointhians 5.

http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/b...+5&version=NIV


Really? what if one does not believe in "hell"? (like me)



What concept?


Will come?
What if this has already happened (as I believe)

The end of the "world" has already happened. The eschaton is in the past (for us).

All the best...judge March 29, the year of our Lord 2004 (or thereabouts)

capnkirk

capnkirk

Thank you Hazel-rah. That is the closest that anyone has come thus far.

judge

The eschaton was future to those who wrote of it in the NT but past to us.

capnkirk

You will need more than a declaration to make that statement stick. So, answer my question: How/when did this eschaton happen? Either demonstrate it with specific NT scriptural quotes or admit that the change in concept is post-biblical (i.e. AFTER the books of the NT were written!). You've been posting on this forum long enough to KNOW that such an unfounded assertion would be met with jeers, so back it up or take it back.

judge

I am not concerned whether the statement "sticks " or not.


Around 70 a.d. and was associated with the destruction of Jerusalem.

Try Matthew 24 or Luke 21 these passages describe what was to happen 40 or so years later.

No one can prove either way when these books were written. Unless you can prove when they were writen you cannot say whether the concepts arose before or after.