Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Copernic · 12-17-2006, 08:14 AM

With all this hubbub about Xmas trees being a Xtian tradition or a western cultural tradition, I seem to remember reading that the Bible warns against pagan rituals such as cutting down trees and decorating them.
Anyone know what I'm talking about.
J

gstafleu · 12-17-2006, 08:37 AM

Don't know about the ban, but the idea of Christmas trees being a Christian tradition is pure nonsense. Christmas falls on the winter solstice, the time when the sun in its yearly cycle is at its lowest point. After the solstice the days lengthen again, so Christmas celebrates the "return of the light." The Christmas tree, an evergreen, symbolizes the survival of nature during winter, and heralds the return of green plants as well. The lights in the Christmas tree stand for, a big surprise here, the light that is returning.

Many churches have a mass/service at midnight, which of course is the point in the daily cycle of the sun when it is at its lowest point.

Just in case someone now wants to respond that I'm putting strange interpretations on an isolated event, let me un-isolate it. Easter falls just after the spring equinox (the first Sunday after the first full moon after the Spring equinox is how you calculate when Easter is). At the equinox the length of day equals the length of night, after that the day is longer than the night. In other words, at the equinox the sun is "halfway up" in its yearly cycle. It is not unusual for churches to have an early morning service at Easter: early morning is the time when the sun is halfway up in its daily cycle.

And as a final nail, the etymology of "Easter" is:

Quote:

Originally Posted by OED

OE. éastre wk. fem. = OHG. ôstara ; more freq. in plural éastron , corresponding to OHG. ôstoron ( MHG. , mod.G. ostern pl.); the strong forms occas. appearing seem to have been derived from the combining form éastor- . Bæda Temp. Rat . xv. derives the word from Eostre ( Northumb. spelling of Éastre ), the name of a goddess whose festival was celebrated at the vernal equinox; her name (:- OTeut. *austrôn- cogn. w. Skr. usra- dawn; see east ) shows that she was originally the dawn-goddess.

The important bit here being this dawn-goddess.

So back to the tree banning Christians: they do have a pretty good point. But they are a bit late with it.

In conclusion, the two major feasts of Christianity are tied to the cycle of the sun in rather obvious ways. To some this is of course total coincidence.

Gerard Stafleu

Julian · 12-17-2006, 09:54 AM

Jeremiah 10:3-5

3 For the customs of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.

4 They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.

5 Like a scarecrow in a melon patch,
their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
because they cannot walk.
Do not fear them;
they can do no harm
nor can they do any good."

Julian

gstafleu · 12-17-2006, 10:08 AM

Isn't this about the idol carved out of the tree rather than the tree?

Gerard Stafleu

Copernic · 12-17-2006, 10:36 AM

Here's the American Standard Version

Quote:

Jeremiah 10
1 Hear ye the word which Jehovah speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:

2 thus saith Jehovah, Learn not the way of the nations, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the nations are dismayed at them.

3 For the customs of the peoples are vanity; for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman with the axe.

4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

5 They are like a palm-tree, of turned work, and speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither is it in them to do good.

6 There is none like unto thee, O Jehovah; thou art great, and thy name is great in might.

It does seems Jeremiah is talking about graven images, the carving (or not carving, depending on which bible you read) of trees and adornment for worship.

He then goes on to say that the idol has no power (neither good nor evil) and is impotent as compared w/ Jehova.

So, current Christians are still violating the Lord's command.

The Christian would counter the argument that they don't consider the tree an idol...I don't know if this matters except in the mind of the modern Christian.

This just goes to liberal interpretation of the scriptures. There are the orthodox in all three Abrahamic religions that consider any picture or carving idolatry even if the intentions are not there.

Cherrypick your bible people, so you can live in modern times.

credoconsolans · 12-17-2006, 12:57 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah

Excerpt (emphasis mine):

Quote:

In Israel and Judah

Biblical references have been taken to indicate that a goddess Asherah was worshipped in Israel and Judah, as the Queen of Heaven whose worship Jeremiah so vehemently opposed:

"Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger."

—Jeremiah 7:17–18

"... to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem ..."

—Jeremiah 44:17

The Hebrews baked small cakes for her festival.

But the word asherah also refers to a standing pole of some kind, pluralized as a masculine noun when it has that meaning. Among the Hebrews' Phoenician neighbors, tall standing stone pillars signified the numinous presence of a deity, and the asherahs may have been a rustic reflection of these. Or asherah may mean a living tree or grove of trees and therefore in some contexts mean a shrine. These uses have confused Biblical translators. Many older translations render Asherah as 'grove'. There is still disagreement among scholars as to the extent to which Asherah (or various goddesses classed as Asherahs) was/were worshipped in Israel and Judah and whether such a goddess or class of goddesses is necessarily identical to the goddess Athirat/Ashratu.

Most of the forty references to Asherah in the Hebrew Bible derive from sources edited by the Deuteronomist. In her study Asherah: Goddesses in Ugarit, Israel and the Old Testament (1997, p. 141), Tilde Binger noted that there is warrant for seeing an Asherah as, variously, "a wooden-aniconic-stela or column of some kind; a living tree; or a more regular statue." For Asherah often a wooden-made rudely carved statue planted on the ground of the house was her symbol, and sometimes a clay statue without legs and stood in the same way. Her idols were found also in forests, carved on living trees, or in the form of poles beside altars that were placed at the side of some roads.

When the young reformer Hezekiah came to the throne of Judah (possibly some time around the 7th century BC) "He removed the high places, and broke the pillars (massebahs), and cut down the Asherah." (2 Kings 18.4). In the Authorized Version of the Bible, the name Asherah is always mistranslated "grove". That error caused a theory that "the Hebrews cut down all the sacred groves, whereupon the land soon stopped flowing with milk and honey" (see deforestation).

davidianwalker · 01-05-2007, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Copernic

With all this hubbub about Xmas trees being a Xtian tradition or a western cultural tradition, I seem to remember reading that the Bible warns against pagan rituals such as cutting down trees and decorating them.
Anyone know what I'm talking about.
J

You may not be aware that christians do not get involved with christmas.
That is another stupid invention of the roman catholic organization.
You may not be aware that the catholic organization have ruthlessly hunted christians for torture and death from the time of constantine until Napoleon Bonaparte put his boot on them.

WishboneDawn · 01-05-2007, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Copernic

Here's the American Standard Version

It does seems Jeremiah is talking about graven images, the carving (or not carving, depending on which bible you read) of trees and adornment for worship.

He then goes on to say that the idol has no power (neither good nor evil) and is impotent as compared w/ Jehova.

So, current Christians are still violating the Lord's command.

How does your last sentence follow from the first two? We worship chrstmas trees??

Quote:

The Christian would counter the argument that they don't consider the tree an idol...I don't know if this matters except in the mind of the modern Christian.

I would argue that I don't carve my tree into an image of worship. Since the carving, the image and the worship all seem to be key to the scripture, I'm not sure how you could argue the decorating a christmas tree it was any kind of violation of the scripture. The only similarities seem to involve cutting down a tree and hanging stuff on it. If I put a nail into a stud in my basement to hang an extension cord, would I be in violation of that scripture?

Quote:

This just goes to liberal interpretation of the scriptures. There are the orthodox in all three Abrahamic religions that consider any picture or carving idolatry even if the intentions are not there.

Cherrypick your bible people, so you can live in modern times.

Cherrypicking implies rejecting or accepting scripture based on conveinience. You're talking about differing interpretations, not cherry picking.

WishboneDawn · 01-05-2007, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidianwalker

You may not be aware that christians do not get involved with christmas.
That is another stupid invention of the roman catholic organization.
You may not be aware that the catholic organization have ruthlessly hunted christians for torture and death from the time of constantine until Napoleon Bonaparte put his boot on them.

I think I can hear the faint sound of bagpipes...

12-17-2006, 08:14 AM	#1
Copernic Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: St. Louis, MO, USA Posts: 446	Ban against decorating trees in the bible? With all this hubbub about Xmas trees being a Xtian tradition or a western cultural tradition, I seem to remember reading that the Bible warns against pagan rituals such as cutting down trees and decorating them. Anyone know what I'm talking about. J

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12-17-2006, 09:54 AM	#3
Julian Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Washington, DC (formerly Denmark) Posts: 3,789	Jeremiah 10:3-5 3 For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. 4 They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter. 5 Like a scarecrow in a melon patch, their idols cannot speak; they must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them; they can do no harm nor can they do any good." Julian

12-17-2006, 10:08 AM	#4
gstafleu Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,719	Isn't this about the idol carved out of the tree rather than the tree? Gerard Stafleu

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