Doug Shaver

Your interpretation, according to your own estimate, is held by only "one in a million scattered worldwide." That looks pretty private to me.

ohmi

The thing is that , given the effort, one can show that all the other interpretations are inconsistent with the scripture as a whole ... God reserves the right to explain His truth to all men eventually, then we shall all know one truth ...

storytime

How do you separate the allegory, metaphor, and figurative speech that comprise the story in John's vision?

Jesus excluded Gentiles and Gentiles had no need of promises made to Jewish people.

Who were the "Firstfruits" to God? I think this speaks of the Levitical priest family that was guaranteed their position forever, and as they were Gods chosen as Gods inheritance, then they were his Firstfruits - his first workers who by their being firstborn sons throughout their generations were obligated to perform their duty in service[sacrifice] to men, the people[congregation] of Israel. These also seem to be the first resurrected from the dead (from their ignorance of not knowing, such as Nichodemus the Levite among the Pharisees), and then the rest of Judaism to be raised up in knowledge. Of course I could be wrong, but when speculation brings a better understanding of Judaism, I'm all for it as nothing is prohibited and what was hidden shall be revealed, "as it is written".

MT.11:5 Jesus sends a message to John in prison that the dead were raised-up[resurrected]. This I think would explain the bodies of the dead coming forth as "flesh and blood cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven", and I have failed to get one Christian scholar to explain why this antidote to the dead is never discussed. Evidence demands an answer, don't you think? (the verse being the evidence in this case).

storytime

Yeah, even Jesus interpretation is inconsistent with old testament mouth of God, when God told Israel that there was no savior, no mediator, no other god or man which could stand beside Him. He stands alone. Somebody lied, but the whole thing is fabricated anyway, so what does it matter?.. men will still join the three biggest death cults in the world and continue eating the garbage and wonder why they become sick to their stomach over it. It all should be vomited out of one's system.

Doug Shaver

That's what they all say. Everybody claims that their interpretation is the only one consistent with scripture as a whole, and they, too, quote the bit about "no private interpretation." There is nothing you can say in defense of your interpretation that your adversaries do not say about their interpretations.

Obviously, you cannot all be right. But it is entirely possible, and I think virtually certain, that every last one of you is wrong.

ohmi

[quote=storytime;5436376]
The spirit of God is manifest in people in the Love all seek in our deepest desire , but in almost all , that spirit is subdued by the world in this life [so that life becomes grey for most, a life of denial of the heart, a life of slavery to the world's false goals]

Jesus is the one who manifested the spirit of God , who showed us God , and John chapter 1 explains that this concept of manifestation of Himself was within God from the beginning [as ;the Word',Logos] ... thus Jesus simply is the manifestation of the perfection of Love that is God, there is no separation, no distinction, no 'other' saviour :-

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Redemption of creation from the world thus begins with one, Jesus, and is progressive, after him the few, then after that the many:-

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

So it is easy to misunderstand if one is not moved yet to understand , and clearly there is a time for Jesus to be the first, then a time for the few [144,000] saints of this earth, then a time in the new earth for the many to be redeemed who go by the broad way [Rev 7:9-10]...

So as you say, 'it matters not' that the many do not yet understand , indeed it must be so.

Yes, and exactly the way Jesus put it too :-

Revelation 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Religion is not about the spirit of truth , but the scripture is ... one does not find the God of Love in religion, but rather one finds the antichrist in religion ... but remember what Jesus said, the antichrist MUST come first...

ohmi

I have no doubt that I can be wrong , because I am no saint and thus no Christian ... but nevertheless I CAN exclude all religion because I see its inconsistencies, one can eliminatre falsehoods by menas of their contradictions [and religion DOES contradict the scripture , even those religions which say that they believe it!]

Thus I simply WORK at making my understanding consistent with ALL the scripture until such time as the promised revealing of all truth to all [Joel 2:28, John 16:13] ... and I understand enough of scripture to know what no religion teaches, that the few are redeemed at Jesus' return , [as he says in Rev 7:3-8], and the many who go by the broad way are indeed destroyed in death, but are saved AFTERWARD [Rev 7:9-10] , thus the many are not redeemed in this life, nor did God ever intend that they should be... mainline 'christianity' has lost sight of Jesus' teaching, just as Jesus said MUST happen...

storytime

[QUOTE=ohmi;5436965]
The "spirit of truth" was a conception for Israelites. The Spirit of the Israelite god was and is not "love" to all people. You must bring yourself to realize that you're reading about a tribal Thunder god, a war god, a psychopathic monster whose hate for the world outside the tribes of Jacob was voiced by Israelite prophets. The story captures the world of Israel in it's victories and battle fatigue, not to mention its losses.

Concerning "the AntiChrist"...

There are two bodies of people portrayed in the NT story, and both bodies are jewish. One body of people are Jews for Jesus(his followers), and the other body of people are against Jesus and recognized as the antichrist. So forget the Pope, he wasn't invented yet, and forget about the spirit of Satan to suddenly come upon the world. That "spirit of antichrist" was already at work in those who were against Jesus because they saw him as "the idol". That was 2000 years ago and today the Jewish people are still the body of antichrist. So it's time to look at this story, chalk it up to Jews against Jews, and move on.

ohmi

The perspective of the Love of God is long-term not just spanning the OT and NT , but extending into our future and beyond death ... thus you misrepresent what was necessary in a Bronze-Age culture.

God required Israel to survive and there was no way to survive without fighting then [arguably things haven't changed that much , but people do their 'fighting' more with propaganda devised behind closed doors these days ... and most people are enslaved by the corrupt money system today , just as scripture predicts, not so much by the sword]

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Since God can and will resurrect all peoples, then the death of people in this life in purpose of God's plan is to simply move people on to the next stage of redemption ... and is essential to Love since God has said that Israel will be His priesthood who bring in the Gentiles from unbelief , so Israel must survive and remarkably have done :-

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

The scripture is largely about israel since they are to be the priests and kings in the kingdom of God come upon the new earth, thus they are to be processed first , starting with the remnant 144,000 given to Jesus whom he takes at his return [much to the astonishment of over a billion 'christian' sinners left behind because they are still sinners]

Concerning "the AntiChrist"...

But you have missed the fact that Jesus came only for the House of Israel, not the Jews ... the House of Israel do NOT accept Judaism , are and were idol-worshippers, and NEVER were Jews .

Most Jews indeed have and will follow the antichrist to their death in this life, but God has reserved a remnant few Jews alongside the remnant of the House of Israel to be His priests in the kingdom ... to understand the scripture, perhaps read all the scripture seeking to understand it.

storytime

The perspective of God was love for his people Israel. Other people had their own gods who loved them.

Why impose yourself into a story that you cannot fit into? Unless, of course, you are willing to convert to that scheme of Judaism? (Then you would be accepted as part of that nation, and would become a Jew and no longer a Gentile. That's the way the nation and its tradition works) Without converting to Judaism, you cannot be a follower of Christ because his way, truth and life-style was Judaism. As he said "salvation is of the Jews".

The story tells that Israel often attacked other people without provacation, and God even commanded the Israelites to vex other people and create enemies so that Israelites could have excuse to attack and slaughter everything that had breath within it. The purpose was of course to steal land and possess it as their own. Do you think Moses learned this strategy of pre-emptive war from his Egyptian upbringing?

John 3:16 is a Gentile[church] imposition, for the OT God certainly did not love the world. He loved only Israel. The God of Israel recognized other gods in the world but commanded his people Israel that they were not to worship them. God was a jealous god and did not tolerate his people going after other gods. To do so would show how they took his name in vain, and the punishment for worshiping other gods and taking his name in vain was the sentence of death, by stoning. IF the people of Israel did not carry out the death penalty on one of their own, then God demanded they receive the death penalty also. What is seen is an extreme punishment for treason and aiding and abetting in tolerance of that treason. So, one should not take the name of the Lord God of Israel lightly. This applies to any who are thinking to convert to Judaism. Other nations and their people probably did not have such an extreme measure of judgment and allowed the worship of many gods. But not Israel. The key ingredient for which the story holds merit is that in identity and maintaining a Jewish stronghold (control) for people as name in "Israel". Obviously without this extreme measure for loyalty Israel would not have survived in name as a people. This is why Jesus cannot be accepted as a God for Jews, for Jesus has been made to represent non Jewish people, Gentiles. Should the Jews accept Jesus as their God, they would lose their identity, be no more Jews but "Christians".