jules?

What date would be attributed to the life of Jesus and the origin of Christianity if there were not the four Gospels or referances to Pilate etc.

?
Jules

GakuseiDon

I think it would still be around the start of the First Century CE, working from circumstantial evidence. The reasoning is:

1. Paul appears to have lived before 1 Clement was written. 1 Clement is dated 80-140 CE.
2. Paul talks about going to Jerusalem, so it would suggest at a time before 70 CE.
3. Paul talks about Christ as though he had died in the recent past, e.g. Jesus died and rose, and appeared to Peter and James, both of whom Paul met.

It still leaves a fairly large window, though no larger than those we have for a lot of early writings.

Solitary Man

Well hell, Tacitus mentions that he was crucified under the reign of Tiberius. Unless you mean no Tacitus or Josephus?

aa5874

I don't think "Paul" can be regarded as a credible witness.

"Paul" used to "see" and "hear" things and appear to be delusional.

1Corinthians 15.3-8 "Paul" saw Jesus after he rose from the dead.

I think "Paul" can see anything you want him to see.

And in the canonised Acts 9.3-5 I think "Paul" can hear anything you want him to hear.

I don't trust this "Paul" at all. He cannot help with anyone's history, not even his own.

spamandham

With or without the Gospels, to my best estimate (which means little), Christianity is really a second century phenomenon ...with the root cause ultimately derived from the new age of Pisces (the fall of the temple ultimately being a historical result of that as well).

Roger Pearse

I don't think it would make any difference if the whole of the NT, all the fathers and heretics and all the non-Christian references down to 200 were deleted. We would still place the events in the early 1st century from later testimony.

A lot of people may suppose that a gap of 2 centuries would mean that we had no certain knowledge, but in ancient history this is routine, and means only that all the intervening literature has been lost. Arrian, the most reliable chronicler of the expedition of Alexander the Great (d. 325 BC), wrote at the end of the 1st century AD, 4 centuries later.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

jules?

I ask the question because apologists have focused on dates for the writing of gospels, on Pilate on the events in Acts. They all lead to one conclusions which is the historical event. But religion does not work like that, other founders [with the exception of Islam and modern cults] float in an age that can be over a period of centuries and as such clues to its origins and the nature of a religions development can be tracked and accounted for.

Personally i see dates in the context of christianity to be a mental box that is difficult to escape. Even 2008 is in that box.

the Jewish War is obviously a key event that changed Jewish religious thought but the process of evolution existed in the centuries before and after that event. To me the constant issue of Jesus the man or myth, whilst entertaining sidesteps the key issues of belief, growth and origins of Christianity.

So imagine no references to dates. What is Tacitus really informing us of, or Josephus or the Gospels and Paul for that matter?

youngalexander

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

. . .

<snip for copyright - Yoko Ono has been known to sue people. Find the rest here>

Imagine no Gospels
...

aa5874

Christians existed before there were followers of Jesus of Nazareth..

The word ""Christ"" originated WITHOUT Jesus of Nazareth.

[B] The word "Christ" pre-dates Jesus of Nazareth.

Even if there was no story about Jesus of Nazarerth, people would still be called "Christ".

Christ means the anointed or anointed with oil, it has nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus of Nazareth, anyone could have been called Christ or call themselves Christ ,perhaps hundreds of years before Pilate.

In the Jesus story, Jesus was called Christ, it should therefore be obvious that the word Christ was already known. Even John the Baptist was asked if he was Christ.

Simon bar Kokchba was called Christ and he was not a follower of Jesus of Nazareth.

In the OT, the words "The Lord's anointed" or "the anointed of God" are used frequently.

The origin of Christianity had nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus of the NT.

The story of Jesus is just fiction believed to be true by those who are being deceived from since the fable of Jesus of Nazareth began.

This is Theophilus to Autolycus1.12

spamandham

I agree that's possible, but how can you show it to be true?