Johnny Skeptic

In addition, what non-Biblical accounts are there that Jesus performed miracles?

GakuseiDon

1. Not very. 2. None independent of the Gospels.

Antipope Innocent II

The stories where he doesn't get the cure right the first time (John 9:1-12) or can't perform miracles at all (Mark 6:5) don't really fit with the whole "God the Son" idea. But do fit with the idea of a Jewish faith healer.

They don't really fit with the MJ idea either that I can see. But I'm sure there's some MJer argument to explain them. There always is.

Toto

How do they fit in with the HJ? Our earliest source, Paul, doesn't appear to know anything about miracles or healing. The idea that Jesus did faith healing or miracles appears to be a late idea, a product of the gospel writers.

Koyaanisqatsi

I.e., a product of Mark. GThomas, to the best of my recollection, doesn't mention any miracles (that aren't clearly meant as metaphors, or the like, anyway) and I don't think the Song of Mary mentioned them, but then, neither of those are considered "gospel."

Whoever "Mark" was, he was clearly not a very good Jewish scholar (if Jewish at all, which is a strange author to pick for a Jewish god), so the first time we see any miracle claims comes from what is likely a Roman, or, at best, a "hellenized" Jew and therefore most likely a devotee (if not a subordinant) to Paul. Whoever he was, he clearly held a prominent position in the "movement" during the Jewish uprising (victory speak for "Jewish genocide"); the only question being (considering what he wrote and IMO) whether or not that position was one of a Roman propagandist or of an anti-Judaic pagan cult leader that could not possibly have been Jewish by any stretch of the imagination.

But then, why would a non-Jew write a gospel account of a Jewish messiah....that is subsequently and inexplicably killed by the Jews (plural, non-specific), who, according to their beliefs, would have known unequivocably that such a particular messenger from their god could not possibly have been killed, let alone would not possibly been killed by fallible, mortal humans, let alone themselves?

When "Elijah" comes, he comes to rain fire and flood and cease the salvation from animal and grain sacrifice; not be a divine sacrifice from an incarnated Yahweh as a necessary "innocent" human sacrifice to Yahweh to appease Yahweh's wrath for Adam (actually Eve) eating the apple of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Tell that to any first century Jew in Jerusalem and you'd have been laughed out of the Temple that the Romans destroyed right about the time Mark was writing his anti-Jewish/pro-Roman pagen populated propaganda.

So, maybe it's all just Josephus writing as "Anonymous" only he used "Mark" instead? Sure seems to fit the chronology and the man.

johnnyv

AFAIK The whole idea of a Holy Jesus son of God came when emperor wotshisname(Some emperor at any rate) tried to combine judaism with the many pagan beliefs in an attempt to settle unrest caused by just this division in faith, and thus created roman catholosism out of (nearly) thin air. Up until then Jesus was "just zis guy, you know?", like he still is in Judaism.

According to people more knowledgeable than me (No, not that prat Dan Brown) says there are tons of symbolic in RCC that correlates directly to late pagan beliefs.

Then again. I don't know what I'm talking about.

Antipope Innocent II

You seem to be basing your understanding on a certain crappy novel by a certain Dan Brown. This is not a good idea.

Antipope Innocent II

They have a ring of authenticity. I can see how miracles where the God-man does wonderous things fit with the MJ idea, but these ones where the God-man bungles them or can't do them at all? Very strange.

Ah, the good old argument from silence. What would you guys do without it?

youngalexander

Late 3rd and 4th C -> pictorial representations of Jesus the wonder-worker, ie. magician with his magic wand. Of course, this derives from scripture (OT) where else?
Origen, Contra Celsum I:45 Moses

AI II, is this historical?

Antipope Innocent II

"Iconographical" is the word that springs to mind.