Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 01-20-2013, 11:45 PM

Did Xianity have to go either or, much like Zoroastrianism, and consign the true gods to the demonic side, or might it have brought them all into a very broad tent?

Why the move to a split world of good and evil?

Quote:

Job 1:6 ►

New International Version (©1984)
One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.

stephan huller · 01-20-2013, 11:58 PM

The Jews did appropriate a lot from the Persians. What is more central to the Jews than pardes or eshdat lamo?

Clivedurdle · 01-21-2013, 02:17 AM

Quote:

The original word eshdat is Persian interestingly enough ...

The Torah that is described by the word eshdat was made out fire not stone. But how can one distinguish between the fiery tables and the fiery text? To solve the problem, the fire was thought to have been composed of two colors, black and white. The tablets were made out of black fire and the letters were made out white fire. The Law thus looked like a blackboard with white words chalked on it. In the words of the Talmud, “The white fire was engraved on black fire and it was a mixed fire and carved out of fire.” This was the magical image the Law possessed prior to Mount Sinai. And in case the skeptical reader is too quick to reject this interpretation out of hand, s/he should be reminded that the King James Version thought that it was appealing and translated this word accordingly.

http://stephanhuller.blogspot.co.uk/...hdat-lamo.html

Opposites are a mistake?

sotto voce · 01-21-2013, 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Did Xianity have to go either or, much like Zoroastrianism, and consign the true gods to the demonic side, or might it have brought them all into a very broad tent?

There are two kinds of 'godness'. The Bible is predicated on free will for all, angels and deity included, as the letter to Hebrews makes clear. It is free will that makes everyone a deity, or potential deity. Every person, i.e. every human or angel, has the sovereign power to exist, or to not exist. It is that in which basic deity exists. Potentate deity exists because one person chose to exist. It is because that one person chose to exist that he became 'real' deity, and it is because that one person chose to exist that anyone else can exist.

So all humanity, with one exception, has taken the option to destroy the self by committing sin, i.e. doing as the conscience says should not be done. This universal failure is due to temptation consequent on temporal existence in this cosmos. Angels are not subject to temptation in that sense, but they do have free will, and therefore have the choice of loving goodness, or of hating it. Some angels take the choice to hate goodness, and are said to be 'fallen', and awaiting judgment. According to the Bible, there is a chief of these angels, who goes under various descriptive names. In Job 1:6 it is not explicit that it is he who is involved. The best translation is:

'There was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and the accuser was among them, moreover.'

Note that the emphasis of the last mentioned is on function rather than either name or status; and the word 'also' in some translations seems to indicate some status that is not angelic, or not just angelic. For some reason that is unknown to us, some power to accuse has been won by, or given to, an individual 'angel'. From the following context it is evident that 'the accuser' is in the control of the Lord, and fulfils his purpose. He is obviously not human, so the accuser is a created being, like other angels.

But status is not the author's interest here. This reference to accusation makes an essential dynamic for the book of Job, but it is not the only characteristic of Satan, so is not definitive, and should not be used as basic to systematic theology. The importance of this mention is that there exists spiritual, moral accusation, because the subject of the book of Job is justification, or not, of the self, in response to accusation.

Cesc · 01-21-2013, 04:26 AM

Dualism is in the nature of Jewish apocalypticism from which Christianity emerged. And with dualistic monotheism there's really not much choice. I think the earliest Christianity thrived in the perceived reality of "us vs them."

Clivedurdle · 01-21-2013, 05:19 AM

Quote:

Dualism is in the nature of Jewish apocalypticism

Surely the good god and the local god of zarathustra is earlier? And either or, us them, we have the truth, you do not are mistakes?

Cesc · 01-21-2013, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

Dualism is in the nature of Jewish apocalypticism

Surely the good god and the local god of zarathustra is earlier? And either or, us them, we have the truth, you do not are mistakes?

Jewish apocalypticism and its eschatology are influenced by the earlier Persian religion surely, as well as by the so-called biblical "prophetic eschatology", but what do you mean "mistakes"?
The satan of Job is not evil incarnate, but rather a sort of prosecutor in the heavenly courtroom. He's made into the figure of the arch-demon, "the evil one" (Matt 13:19; 1John 5:18), only later in the inter-testamental period, with its heavy dualism and apocalypticism and under the influences of Persian religion amongst others. There's no room for anything in between, there's only good and evil.

mountainman · 01-22-2013, 08:20 PM

Saint Hercules and other stories (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Martin ARMSTRONG

Saints Nereus and Achilleus

Quote:

The old Roman lists of the 5th century, which passed over into the Martyrologium Hieronymianum, contain the names of the two martyrs Nereus and Achilleus, whose grave was in the Catacomb of Domitilla on the Via Ardeatina. The notice in the more- complete version given by the Berne Codex (ed. de Rossi-Duchesne, Acta SS., Nov., II, [59]), reads: IIII id. Maii, Romae in coemeterio Praetextati natale Nerei et Achillei fratrum (On 12 May at Rome in the cemetery of Praetextatus [an evident error for Domitilla?] the natal day of the brothers Nereus and Achilleus").

In the invocation of the Mass for 2 October in the "Sacramentarium Gelasianum", the names of Nereus and Achilleus alone are mentioned. In the fourth and following centuries a special votive Mass was celebrated on 12 May at the grave of Saints Nereus and Achilleus on the Via Ardeatina. The Itineraries of the graves of the Roman martyrs, written in the 7th century, are unanimous in their indication of the resting-place of these saints (Giovanni Battista de Rossi, "Roma sotterranea", I, 180-83).

The church built over the grave of Sts. Nereus and Achilleus in the Via Ardeatina, is of the latter part of the 4th century; it is a three-naved basilica, and was discovered by de Rossi in the Catacomb of Domitilla.

Notice the pivotal involvement of the papal archaeologist de Rossi.

Achillius of Larissa

Quote:

Saint Achillius of Larissa, also known as Achilles,[1] Ailus,[2] Achillas,[1] or Achilius[3] (Greek: Άγιος Αχίλλειος), was one of the 318 persons present at the First Council of Nicaea. His feast day is on 15 May.[4]

Life and legend

Achillius was metropolitan of Larissa in Thessaly, Greece, and is remembered primarily for his vehement defense of orthodoxy during the Council of Nicea and a miracle he performed in testimony against Arianism.

Taking up a stone, Achillius called to the Arians: 'If Christ is a creature of God, as you say, tell oil to flow from this stone.' The heretics kept silent, amazed at this demand by St. Achillius. Then the saint continued: 'And if the Son of God is equal to the Father, as we believe, then let oil flow from this stone.' And oil flowed out, to the amazement of all.[2]

Upon returning from the Council, Achillius is reputed to have "cast down many pagan temples, built many churches, [and] cast out many demons".[5]

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

01-20-2013, 11:58 PM	#2
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The Jews did appropriate a lot from the Persians. What is more central to the Jews than pardes or eshdat lamo?

01-21-2013, 04:26 AM	#5
Cesc Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 322	Dualism is in the nature of Jewish apocalypticism from which Christianity emerged. And with dualistic monotheism there's really not much choice. I think the earliest Christianity thrived in the perceived reality of "us vs them."

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.