Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Kilgore Trout · 12-14-2003, 11:35 PM

Beanpie, here is a link to a very good explanation on who the "US" refers to.------HERE------

Here is a highlight from it....

Quote:

If you had attended any one of my lectures you would know that the New International Version is hardly a Bible that can be construed as being friendly to Judaism. Yet, the NIV Study Bible also writes in its commentary on Genesis 1:26,

Us . . . Our . . . Our. God speaks as the Creator-king, announcing His crowning work to the members of His heavenly court. (see 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8; I Kings 22:19-23; Job 15:8; Jeremiah 23:18)

Charles Caldwell Ryrie, a highly regarded dispensationalist professor of Biblical Studies at the Philadelphia College of Bible and author of the widely read Bible commentary, The Ryrie Study Bible, writes in his short and to-the-point annotation on Genesis 1:26,

Us . . . Our. Plurals of majesty.

The Liberty Annotated Study Bible, a Bible commentary published by the Reverend Jerry Falwell�s Liberty University, similarly remarks on this verse,

The plural pronoun �Us� is most likely a majestic plural from the standpoint of Hebrew grammar and syntax.

In other words it's a similar idea to when a nurse will ask you "how are we feeling today?" Or a king will say "We are not impressed," and he is only referring to himself alone. So both the "us" and the "our" refer to god alone and not some trinity.

Hope that answers your question!

Oh... and Magus55, god doesn't have a body. He is supposed to be limitless and has no form.

mike_decock · 12-15-2003, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rlogan
Mike - I think this book review will help:

Journal of Hebrew Scriptures - Volume 4 (2002-2003) -

Review of Mark S. Smith, The Origins of Biblical Monotheism: Israel's Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic Texts (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2001). Pp. xviii + 325. ISBN 019513480X. $ 60.

Very cool. I think that will cover what I'm looking for. Here's the Amazon link:

The Origins of Biblical Monotheism

Quote:

So in response to the opneing post, it is abundantly clear to me that the Genesis language means something akin to a "college of Gods". The Gods Committee. God Club.

Yup. Divine Council. Council of Gods.

Do you see traces of the Enuma Elish in "Let us create man in our image"?

-Mike...

rlogan · 12-15-2003, 01:15 AM

Seems to me the sixth tablet is missing some key stuff there on the "image" - but let's say Moses was more of a "shorthand" creation story. Thank God for the Christians' sake. Can you imagine them having to defend dragons, scorpion-men and all that stuff?

mike_decock · 12-15-2003, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rlogan
Thank God for the Christians' sake. Can you imagine them having to defend dragons, scorpion-men and all that stuff?

-Mike...

Jackalope · 12-15-2003, 05:24 AM

Hah. The pile on my desk just disgorged my copy of The Hebrew Goddess by Raphael Patai. If you completely skip Merlin Stone's foreward, the rest of the book is pretty good scholarship. On page 38, he talks about the worship of the Caanaite deities Asherah and Baal among the Hebrews. He even comes up with a description of Asherah worship, drawing from Judges. He notes that Asherah poles were made of wood, and therefore have left no archeological traces...

Quote:

On the other hand, there is ample archeological evidence as to the importance of Asherah as a household goddess, a variety of the Terephim. This evidence consists of numerous small clay figurines of nude women already referred to above. These were found all over Palestine and can be dated with confidence as deriving from all ages of the Israelite period. Many of thse fingerines conform to types which can be taken as stereotyped representations of Asherah. This seems especially to be the case with those figurines that show a woman with protruding breasts below which, however, instead of torso and legs, the figure consists of a straight cylindrical column with a flaring base. One can assume that these figurines are the small clay counterparts of the larger wooden Asherah poles which were set up by implanting them into the ground. Judging from the frequent occurrence of these female figurines, not matched anywhere by images of male gods, the worship of the goddess must have been extremely popular in all segments of Hebrew society. One of the reasons for her popularity may have been the belief that she promoted fertility in women and facilitated childbirth. In a 7th-century BCE Hebrew incantation text, found in Arslan Tash in upper Syria, the help of the Goddess Asherah may have been contained in the original form of the exclaimation made by Leah at the birth of Zilpah's son, whome she named Asher. If so, we have here a testimony to the worship of Asherah in the early period in which the patriarchal traditions of Genesis orginated.

pg 39.

Jackalope · 12-15-2003, 05:40 AM

And another quote, from pg 53 on newer discoveries made since the first edition of the book:

Quote:

One of the most intriguing finds that has come to light in the past decade is that of Kuntillat 'Ajrud in the northeast Sinai, some forty miles south of 'Ayn al-Qudayrat (equated with Kadesh-Barnea), where two large pithoi(storage jars) were discovered. They are over three feet high, and one of them carries this inscription (in my translation): "Amaryau said to my lord...may you be blessed by Yaweh and by his Asherah. May he bless you and keep you, and be with my lord."

Another inscription from the same site reads: "I have blessed you by Yahweh shmrn and his Asherah." The meaning of shmrn is uncertain; possibly it refers to Shomron, that is, Samaria. The Kuntillat 'Ajrud pithoi have been ascribed to ca. 800 BCE, that is, to the middle period of the divided Judean-Israelite monarchy.

...[two more examples of "Yahweh and his Asherah"]...

The combined import of these recent archaeological finds and the suggested emendation of the passage in Hosea--added to the historical record as it can be gleaned from the Biblical references summarized above--is that the worship of Asherah as the consort of Yaweh ("his Asherah"!) was an integral element of religious life in the ancient Israel prior to the reforms introduced by King Joshiah in 621 BCE.

Jackalope · 12-15-2003, 05:48 AM

Enough quoting. Patai notes that archeological finds have turned up other types of goddess figurines and plaques representing Qadesh, Asherah, Astarte, and Anath. The finds range from Middle Bronze (2000-1500 BCE) to Early Iron II (900-600 BCE). Astarte/Anath/Ashtoreth was the sister and consort of Baal, who was also frequently worshipped in ancient Israel.

CJD · 12-15-2003, 06:41 AM

Dear beanpie, the search function works. In this thread, I wrote . . .

Quote:

As [ONE USER] pointed out, Genesis 1:26 could refer to the Trinity, or to other "gods." More importantly, however, he makes reference to what I believe is actually the case�a reference to royalty. But it is not singular royalty in view here. God is addressing the heavenly court (cf. 1 Kgs. 22:19�22; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7; Ps. 29:1�3; 89:5�6; Dan. 10:12�13; Luke 2:8�14). In the other OT texts that employ the pronoun "us" for God (Gen. 3:22; 11:7; Isa. 6:8), the Trinity does not seem to be in view. In each of these four occurrences, God refers to "us" when humans have impinged upon the heavenlies, and he then begins to decide their fate. For example, in Gen. 3:22, humans grasped at autonomous knowledge. In Gen. 11, the heavenly court comes down to see the misguided earth-bound builders building to attain heavenly space. In Isa. 6:8, God is clearly addressing the heavenly court, wherein the prophet, through visions, has entered. All this to say that the Genesis pericope is not intended to be a Trinitarian proof-text. But take comfort, [ANOTHER USER, who still seems to have a problem understanding this passage in its biblical context], it does not undermine the existence of the Trinity, or its Scriptural warrant elsewhere.

[YET ANOTHER USER] makes reference to Genesis 3:22, and how the 1st person plural pronoun "us" makes little sense there if referring to the heavenly court (or angels). The assumption yet to be proven by [THE SAME USER] is that "the 'us' is more of an equal to god." Why do you think this? In Genesis 3:5, the word "knowing" is most likely a countable plural. In other words, it probably should read, " . . . you will be like divine beings, knowers of good and evil." Hence Genesis 3:22, "They have beome like one of us, knowers of good and evil." This is hardly something particular to God alone, as other heavenly beings would also know this "good-and-evil." Note that this "good-and-evil" should be taken as an all-encompassing knowledge of morality. That is, the capacity to create a system of ethics and make moral judgments. The problem came when the couple seized it independently from their maker, etc., etc. Any more would be off-topic.

IDs removed to protect the innocent.

Regards,

CJD

beanpie · 12-15-2003, 09:06 AM

Please, provide PROOF, if you are truthful.

Toto · 12-15-2003, 10:33 AM

The Hebrew Goddess (Jewish Folklore and Anthropology) by Raphael Patai, Merlin Stone

12-15-2003, 09:06 AM	#29
beanpie Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: voston Posts: 699	TRINITY??? Please, provide PROOF, if you are truthful.

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12-15-2003, 01:15 AM	#23
rlogan Banned Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Alaska Posts: 9,159	Seems to me the sixth tablet is missing some key stuff there on the "image" - but let's say Moses was more of a "shorthand" creation story. Thank God for the Christians' sake. Can you imagine them having to defend dragons, scorpion-men and all that stuff?

12-15-2003, 05:48 AM	#27
Jackalope Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Hayward, CA, USA Posts: 1,675	Enough quoting. Patai notes that archeological finds have turned up other types of goddess figurines and plaques representing Qadesh, Asherah, Astarte, and Anath. The finds range from Middle Bronze (2000-1500 BCE) to Early Iron II (900-600 BCE). Astarte/Anath/Ashtoreth was the sister and consort of Baal, who was also frequently worshipped in ancient Israel.

12-15-2003, 10:33 AM	#30
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The Hebrew Goddess (Jewish Folklore and Anthropology) by Raphael Patai, Merlin Stone

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