Conchobar

Jesus did not die, at least not on the cross.

Jesus was taken down as the request of the Jews because Sabbath was approaching with the setting Sun. Given that it was Spring near the equinox, the time would have been between 6-7 PM Friday. So Jesus spent the remainder of Friday 5-6 hours (to Midnight) in the tomb. He then spends all of Saturday Midnight to the following Midnight or 24 hours. So far that is 29 or 30 hours total. From Midnight until early Sunday morning when he "arose" would be anywhere from 6 AM to 8 AM depending on whether he was an early or late riser. So add in 6 hours and the total is 36 hours in the tomb. If he was a late sleeper, it could then be 38 hours.

So Jesus was according to the Gospels on the cross an incredibly short time. Even Pilate supposedly commented on the short time for Jesus to die. Most people died a lingering death on the cross from 1 to 4 days before really dying. One thing that happens as one is nailed to the cross instead of being bound by rope, and that is vaso-vagal pain induced drop in blood pressure and perfusion of the brain with blood. Autonomic failure would have caused blood to pool in the lower body below the level of the heart. Then hanging puts negative pressure on the lungs. His chest is literally stretched while his abdominal contents, liver, stomach, blood swollen spleen, and intestines tug downward. This keeps the lungs hyper inflated. The diaphragmatic bellows cannot function but at a fraction of its normal capacity. Therefore he is in building degrees of respiratory failure, and build-up of Carbon dioxide (Hypercarbia) with severe blood acidosis. So we have cardiogenic shock (hypotension), hypoxia (lack of Oxygen), and Hypercarbia with blood acidosis leading to inevitable coma, but not necessarily death.

After he lapsed into coma, he may have been presumed dead. That happened thousands of times in history, when the dead person sat up awake in the casket. Jesus could have been comatose. A spear to the peritoneum naturally showed ascites fluid with some blood in it. But no Roman reported listening to his heart, checking his pulse, or see if he was breathing at all. In shock they may not have found them if they tried. But they took him down very quickly after only about three or 4 hours. Then he was placed horizontally. His blood flow becoming horizontal instead of vertical could have started reperfusing his brain. Blood would start returning to his heart from the vasodilated legs and abdomen. His blood pressure would approach normal perfusion levels. Meanwhile his abdominal contents would no longer pull his diaphragm down. He could start to in hale air and exhale excessive CO2. Over a couple of hours his blood acidity would have equilibrated.

Once he was horizontal for a few hours in the tomb, his blood-brain perfusion would be normal. His pO2 (partial pressure of Oxygen in the blood) would be returned to normal His high pCO2 partial pressure would decline back to normal levels. The CO2 = H+ [HCO3]- = H2CO3 equation would shift to CO2 which is exhaled and the Carbonic Acid level would drop, bringing the blood from acid back to near the low alkaline pH of normal. Even with this, it may have taken a couple more hours for the brain cells to recover sufficiently for consciousness to return. But maybe it did.

Then Yeshua wakes up wrapped in linen in a cold cave. He got up dizzily, staggered about until he adjusted to being upright after such a shock. It may have taken a few hours to be steady enough to push the rock, DOWN, the slope from the opening. He then steps outside and runs into his love, Mary Magdalene, who helps him into siding hiding. The story may have been generated that he resurrected from the dead. It is understandable given the low level of medical knowledge of that time.

So perhaps there was a resurrection but it was not from the dead but a recovery from cardiogenic/hypoxic/acidosis coma.

Conchobar

keyser_soze

Aren't you forgetting that he was stoned and then hung in a tree? Of course, even that is supposing that he actually was killed, and not his brother...

Conchobar

If the couple hours on the cross produced hypoxia, and brain ischemia, with acidosis so severe as to kill Jesus then we have a different scenario. He may have dropped his blood pressure so low or suffered cardiac arrest. In this case his brain was getting no oxygen and no blood flow. He not only had anoxia, and lack of blood perfusion with O2 and glucose, but was not removing toxins of metabolism. The build-up of neurotransmitter amines and glutamate plus the destruction of calcium channels in the neurons led to Calcium influx, potassium out flux, water permeation and cell swelling.

After a couple hours in this severe state the neuronal nuclei would break up. Mitochondria would burst and cease cellular metabolism. Swelling cells would rupture. In a few more hours his brain, axons, astrocytes, and oligodendrocytes would necrose. His capillary network would fragment with clots in the stasis of blood flow. Then the brain would turn into a semi-liquid mush. All fibre circuits would be erased. All memories, language functions, cognitive and emotional circuits, vision, hearing, and autonomic regulation (heat regulation, sweating, cardiac regulation would have already been lost.)

In such a body, the necrotic brain can produce no electrical saltatory transmission. No synapses would be left anyway. This is "Brain Death" which I am compelled to determine to my great sadness in patients about once per week. Once true Brain Death is determined by 1. Loss of pupillary reflexes, 2. Loss of reflexive eye movements (Doll's eyes and caloric reponses,) 3. Loss of corneal responses, 4. Absence of any spontaneous breathing trigger with measured hypoxia/hypercarbia, 5. Loss of patterned motor responses (flaccid paralysis), 6. Flat lined EEG done twice 24 hours apart, or non-flow on MRAngiography. I always insist on the 24 hour period and blood tests showing no sedative drug levels. Then that is the final form of death. None have ever recovered in multiple different studies. Unfortunately no one commented on Jesus’ pupillary reactions, his ocular motor reflexes, patterned reflex responses that may persist in some comas. No Roman medical corps officer checked Jesus’ pulse, listened to his heart, or did standard neuro checks. Naturally no EEG was done. So we can’t say if he died for certain. But he may have died. And if so the rest of the story would be different.

So if Jesus really died, and was dead 36 or 39 hours, his brain was a featureless mush. No blood flow meant no oxygen, no removal of glutamate, no prevention of open Calcium ion channels, and no maintenance of membrane stability of neurones. Then apoptosis (cell death) occurred. There was nothing with which to perceive, to be aware, to activate muscles, circuits to think, or circuits to talk. To truly resurrect, his entire brain would have to be remade from scratch with intact neurons, axons, myelin sheathes, synapses, ample concentrations of neurotransmitters at pre-synaptic nerve endings, and normal transmitter receptors on healthy dendrites of neurons. And the billions of circuits of the individual person would have to be exactly duplicated. That doesn’t occur. One must postulate very special magic, and magic has yet to be proven to exist.

So a truly dead Jesus resurrecting would not be possible outside of the realm of fantastic magic. Believers would say nothing is impossible with the excuse...miracles (i.e. magic). But that is unprovable. It is a cop out when somebody cannot explain the impossible or the unknown.

So either Jesus died OR he resurrected, but not both.

Conchobar
PS: I left out the possibility that Jesus never even lived.

Conchobar

I see several problems in viewing Jesus as anything other than a biologically fully human man.

The virgin birth without introducing male Y chromosomes in sperm is problematic. If Miriam became pregnant with Jesus without sexual intercourse with a human male, then Jesus would have only X chromosomes no Y chromosome. That means Jesus would have to be a female.

The miracle claims are baseless. Other redeemers have done magic tricks. So I won't pay any attention to such claims.

The death and resurrection are a major problem. I realise that about 10 other god-men died and resurrected before Jesus, so the theme was popular. But looking at it as a realist, we have three possibilities.

1. Jesus died on the cross. Blood flow to his brain ceased. Within a few hours his neuronal nuclei began to die off. If blood was not restored in 3 hours he suffered permanent brain cell loss. Brain cells undergo apoptosis, nuclei fragment, and cells first swell when the mitochondria run out of energy, the K+/Na+ pump has failed. Then the cell breaks down. But by 36 hours the brain is turning into a thick mush with circuits and neuronal generators gone. The grey-white junction is gone. If Jesus died, he couldn't have possibly resurrected because even if his muscles still partially contracted, his brain was mush and incapable of thinking, consciousness, or moving his limbs. One must postulate magic and big time magic. God would have to rebuild his neurons and circuits, a million billion synapses. Quite a magic trick. If God did that, why not heal the relatively minor wrist and ankle wounds?

(Pathologic changes within the neuropil follow the metabolic abnormalities. One of the first effects is cytotoxic oedema that results from failure of the Na/K ion pump. Early on, this stage is still reversible. Prolonged ischemia leads to cell death and coagulation necrosis. After 3-6 hours of ischemia, irreversible damage occurs to the capillary endothelium.)

2. Jesus went into shock. He did suffer brain anoxia and if it lasted 3-5 hours he would be really dead. But he was taken down within three hours. Fluid had accumulated in his legs and abdomen as he went into cardiogenic shock. His pulse and heart beat may be undetectable. A piercing of the abdomen would release ascitic fluid of congestive heart failure along with some blood. Then once down, he was placed in a horizontal position. Lying horizontal may require 6 or more hours of reperfusion of the brain for him to wake up. That may have occurred in the tomb. Then he gradually stabilised. In 38 hours he was up and about. Perhaps he then pushed the boulder enough to roll it back. He then walked out. Not resurrected but recovered from shock.

3. Jesus never was crucified. He may have died of stoning to death as Jesus Ben Pandira 150 years BC. Or Jesus may have retired to an olive farm and died of old age with his loving great grandchildren attending him. And his followers maintained a cult of Judaism based on his teachings (Ebionites). However, a foreigner, Saul of Tarsus, mythologized him and started a new Roman Pagan religion based on Jesus.

Conchobar

Conchobar

Is there to be a resurrection from the dead?

Death is final. There is no resurrection from the dead. There will be a resurrection from the dead.

Job 7:9 "As the cloud is consumed and vanishes away, so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more."

Ps.6:5 "For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?"

Ec.3:19 "For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast."

Ec.9:5 "The dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward."

Ec.9:10 "For there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."

Is.26:14 "They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased they shall not rise."

Is.38:18 "For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth."

I am just saying what the Bible says. I comment no further since I admit the Bible is a weak authority on such things. I just wonder why the Christian Heresy invented resurrection.

Conchobar

Conchobar

Jesus was taken down as the request of the Jews because Sabbath was approaching with the setting Sun. Given that it was Spring near the equinox, the time would have been between 6-7 PM Friday. So Jesus spent the remainder of Friday 5-6 hours (to Midnight) in the tomb. He then spends all of Saturday Midnight to the following Midnight or 24 hours. So far that is 29 or 30 hours total. From Midnight until early Sunday morning when he "arose" would be anywhere from 6 AM to 8 AM depending on whether he was an early or late riser. So add in 6 hours and the total is 36 hours in the tomb. If he was a late sleeper, it could then be 38 hours.

So it wasn't three days at all but one and one half days, 36 hours or at the most liberal, 38 hours. Is that consistent with the three days of Jonas, Mithra, Osiris, Aten Sun God, Horus, Lugh of the Golden Fire, Attis, or Apollonius of Tirana?

http://www.unc.edu/~reddeer/classlog/anncls12.html

“The theme of the rising dying god at spring or harvest share in common the element of transition. Their deaths such as Attis who castrated himself... Adonis/Adoni/Lord was castrated in honour of the goddess... Osiris/Tamus-Dumuzi who were hacked to death... all go through a violent/unwilling end as part of their death/release process... giving over of ego to the better of the whole then descend to the underworld where various measures procure/assure their rebirth/return.

Osiris and Attis find themselves bound to a tree (though the actual event varies in different translations). Attis is portrayed dying under a pine (evergreen, never dying) being buried in a cave and rising on the third day. I believe Dionysus (a Corn God version of the dying/rising God) shared the third day theme... which has Lunar tones of the three days of the dark moon... that then waxes again to full. Dionysus is an interesting Rising God... unlike many of these figures who are born of virgin mothers... he was born once of a Woman (Semele) and then again from his own father's (Zeus') thigh. At his birth he was wrapped in swaddling clothes and placed in a manger. He was also attributed with turning water to wine... and feeding the multitudes in the wilderness. The God Mithras shares in the manger birth... as well as shepherd's showing tribute... Attis was known as the "good Shepherd".

The symbol of the tree/pole is linked also to the World Tree and is found from Ireland to India and the image of the dying rising god on a tree/pole/cross was a very common pagan theme throughout ancient civilizations as the tree/cross for those Gods sharing a death at/near the Vernal equinox... the cross may have represented not an actual material cross but made reference to an astrological occurrence of this time - that being the ‘crossing of two astrological celestial circles’.”

Conchobar

Theophage

You seem to have a one-man thread going here, but I'd like to add some comments:

Jesus did not die, at least not on the cross.

The Bible says otherwise. In the gospels, Jesus is said to have "gave up the ghost" while on the cross. this particular idiom also appears in several places in the OT meaning that the person died. If you meant that "the Bible says he died, but he really didn't" you could have phrased that a bit more obviously.

So either Jesus died OR he resurrected, but not both.

Technically, you can't resurrect unless you are first dead, so your sentence above really doesn't make sense. I assume you meant "appeared to have resurrected". Again, you should make youself a bit more clear

Daniel "Theophage" Clark

Brian_iiiii

Ah, the Swoon Theory!

http://www.equip.org/free/CP0112.htm

This argument attributes incompetence or even stupidity to quite a few people. The Romans, for example, failed to make sure that Jesus Christ actually died; the Romans and Jews both failed to discover the deception. And the disciples were stupid enough to believe that Jesus had raised Himself from the dead.

Can you imagine that Jesus endured six trials, a crown of thorns, a Roman scourge, crucifixion, the spear in the side, loss of blood, 3 days without medical attention, and then overcame an armed guard, walked on pierced feet -- and He somehow or other convinced His disciples that He conquered death and the grave -- and that He was, in fact, the Prince of Life. That He then lived out His life in obscurity and died of natural causes?

My friend, if you can believe this, the resurrection should pose no problem for you whatsoever. The "swoon theory" is ridiculous in the extreme and yet some people hang their hats on it.

Theophage

I certainly agree with the above. I consider it much more rational to conclude that the whole resurrection is a myth. But some people have pretty irrational beliefs...

Alan N

Brian_iiiii, all the equip.org article accomphishes is saying "I don't like that theory because, well, because it's silly".

The article claims that "That He then lived out His life in obscurity and died of natural causes?". He was an obscure figure during his life. Why would how the "He then lived" part be any different? Every time someone posts on this board about the lack of attestation in extra-biblical lit. to Jesus, the Christian camp claims that the 'goings-on' were in a relatively obscure politico-geo piece of world...who would have even noticed such people and events. When queried as to why the 'killing of the innocents' by Herod is not documented in extra-biblical lit, a similar chorus sounds, that is, "why would such an event in a relatively obscure province necessarily be documented". You can't have it both ways.

Lastly, I don't think that this theory attributes incompetence or stupidity to anyone. Ignorance, naivete...perhaps.