mg01

I'm working with an electronic Hebrew/English Bible in Excel and I'm looking at the occurrences of different El epithets that are used and translated typically in English simply as God. (El Shadday, El Olam, El Beth-El, El Lahai Roi, etc...)

The thing is I don't know Hebrew, however, I'm familiar with enough the alphabet and with the help of references can recognize nouns, it's the conjugations that begin to throw me. (If anyone knows of a good online interlinear or reverse-interlinear that would be really helpful.)

I'm looking for help translitering the various occurrences of Elohe in places where it's used mainly in instances such as "yhwh the god (elohe) of..." or "el elohe israel" or "el elohe abraham" etc... These I can recognize where it's simply אלהי. But there are other instances where it looks like there may be additional conjugation going on and if I'm going to translisterate I want to make sure I'm doing it correctly.

Here are some examples of what I'm talking about.

אלהי - Basically Elohim (אלהים) without the plural -im ending
From Gen 9:26, יהוה אלהי שם - YHWH Elohe Shem (god of Shem)
From Gen 24:3, יהוה אלהי השמים ואלהי הארץ - YHWH Elohe (of the) sky and Elohe (of the) Earth. (god of the sky and god of the earth)
From Gen 24:12, יהוה אלהי אד�*י אברהם - YHWH Elohe (of) my adonai Abraham (god of my lord Abraham)
From Gen 31:42, אלהי אבי אלהי אברהם - Elohe (of) my father, Elohe (of) Abraham (god of my father, god of Abraham)

So the question is, is "Elohe", the correct English transliteration of אלהי in these case?

Additionally, there are the variations I run across. Such as cases where it's "your god" or "our god" or "their god" and instead of straight אלהי there may be אלהיך, אלהיכם, אלהי�*ו, or something similar. Each is variation of אלהי just with a different ending (conjugation?) that seems to correspond in English to "your god", "our god" etc... in usage, but would the transliteration be different in these cases, something other than simply Elohe?

I don't want to start making these replacements in my document if I can't do it right. If the rules are straight forward enough then I'll give it a shot. Any help?

spin

Elohe is not aesthetically correct as the last letter in Hebrew is a yod, which cashes out either as a "y" or an "i", but then, Elohe is what is used. (Just google it to see.)


spin

Ben C Smith

I agree with spin here (mark your calendar). I like to see the yod transliterated as something more than a flavorless e, which is so often silent at the end of English words and can thus be misleading. The way the word is pointed in the Masoretic text, I would probably render it 'elōhēy. But that may be too complex for smooth reading. Perhaps just elohey if you wish to keep things simple.

BTW, the form אלהי is the construct state. Indo-European languages, when expressing a genitive concept such as the tail of (belonging to) a dog change the word to which the main noun belongs. In English, for example, we add an apostrophe and an s:

the dog's tail

Hebrew is different. In Hebrew the main noun is the one that is changed, so in a phrase such as the God of Abraham it is God, not Abraham, that is changed. So we go from אלהים to אלהי.

If you want to peruse various online Hebrew and English texts, you can go to the texts page on my website and select any Hebrew book (Genesis, Exodus, whatever) to get a pretty good list of links, chapter by chapter.

Ben.

mg01

So are you saying Elohey אלהי is the modfied (to show possession) form of Elohim אלהים? I actually thought it was a modified form of El אל? Or is it Eloah אלוה?

If I turn your example around to "the tail of the dog", and the 's goes away, dog reverts to unmodified form. So in English translation, would it not then be ok to render as "the Elohim of Abraham" - which "undoes" the genetive modification present in the actual Hebrew?

Additionally, to extend the forms beyond just the אלהי case, what about...

אלהי�*ו = "our god"
אלהיו = "his god"
אלהיה = "her god"
אלהיהם = their god"
אלהיך = "your god"

How would these be best rendered...

"(our/his/her/their/your) Elohim"
or
"(our/his/her/their/your) Elohey"
or
"(our/his/her/their/your) Eloah" ?

I'm assuming the addition of the english pronuon undoes the need for genitive modification on the Hebrew. In which case would it not be better to show the root? But in these instances which root is it?

Also I also see where in some cases אלהי is used for "gods" in translation just like you see elohim sometimes used ("other gods"). The same form represents both plurality and possession, depending on usage?

Thanks for the help.

Ben C Smith

Correct.

Yes, but now dog is the object of a preposition (of); it is still not the main noun, which is still tail.

So in English we basically think tail of-dog, while in Hebrew they basically think tail-of dog.

I think so. (I originally thought you were trying to transliterate the entire Hebrew text, BTW, in which case elohey would probably be the way to go.)

I would undo (as you say) the pronominal possessive suffix and stick with elohim, if it is your intent to transliterate instead of translate that one word.

Use the nonconstruct state in transliteration if that transliterated word (elohim) is part of a translation.

Elohim is the plural nonconstruct form; elohey is the plural construct form. Both are plural. When used of the single God of Israel, the true plural elohim received (either usually or always; I do not know offhand) a singular verb; when used of the multiple gods of neighboring nations, elohim received a plural verb (see 1 Samuel 4.8, for example).

Ben.

Anybody who knows Hebrew is more than welcome to correct or nuance any of the above; Hebrew is not my strongest suit.

spin

I got interrupted before sending this and I notice Ben C has responded. I post it as ulterior comment.
Morphologically elohim is plural, and yes, when it is modified, the final /m/ is not used, as Ben C pointed out. It can be modified by another noun/name,

)LHY $M = the god of Shem (one of your examples)

"sons" = BNYM
"sons of Israel" = BNY Y$R)L

or by a pronominal suffix,

)LHY:K = your god(s)
)LHY:NW = our god(s)
BNY:W = his sons

The plural of El is Elim [)LYM], as in Ps 29:1 (which is problematical for translators who have used "mighty" and "heavenly beings" in attempts to deal with the verse).

A fair chance for a singular form from )LHYM is seen in Deut 32:17, which you mention, )LWH - Eloah, but there is really no way of knowing what the actual case was.

That sounds reasonable in English, but I don't understand what your ultimate aim is with the modification of the text

Yup.

As I said, elohim is morphologically plural, so it shouldn't be too strange to see it used in cases as plural. It is also used singularly for other gods, eg 1 Sam 5:7 regarding Dagon, "our god" [)LHY:NW]. The Hebrew "construct", which gives you the possessive in English, is indicated in the plural by the omission of the final mem. Plurality and possession are indicated differently. The confusion comes when a plural form is used for a singular noun. Often the context clears up when it is singular and when plural. We recently talked about whether elohim in Gen 1:26 was singular or plural, but as the verb is singular, we are clearly dealing with a singular noun -- which looks plural! In 1 Sam 5:7 )LHY:NY refers to Dagon, so is singular.


spin

mg01

Thanks both for your answers, this is very helpful. Bascally what I'm looking to do is since there are a number of Hebrew works that express concepts of divinity and/or names for God have an English translation that shows which Hebrew root was used. Sort of what the Jerusalem Bible does for YHWH (no translation to Lord) I'm trying to do for El, Eloah, Elohim, etc...

I also ran across this site which was also helpful. It shows Hebrew/English versions that allow you to hover over each word with a pop-up of the strong number and definition. I'd seen something similar before but in not knowing what was going on with the genetive/possive forms wasn't sure what to make of the cases that were not straight אלהים.

http://www.bibleone.org/BibleCompare...2%3a2%3a3%3a15

Another issue I've run across is with Daniel which uses what the bibleone site seems to identify as (I'm guessing) an Aramaic version of Eloah or Elohim. I can't look it up details at the moment but if I get a chance later I will.