Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Chili · 09-26-2006, 04:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

i love the way words are dumped into discussions with an assumption that their meaning is agreed upon. Take infinity - which one? That of natural numbers, prime numbers, odd numbers, fractions....

Funny that, more than one infinity! So what does "God is infinite" mean? Might it be meaningless mumbo jumbo?

It means that infinity was before God came to be with God being descriptive of the essence of existence.

Malachi151 · 09-26-2006, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hinduwoman

Christ was God’s only begotten son.
But does not begotten imply a child born from the father’s seed?
If Paul was simply stealing a pagan story of a son begotten by a god and that is how the early Christians understood it, then it is ok to use the word. But if Mary was impregnated spiritually then why such a term?

What do the original manuscripts say? :wave:

I've always laughed at this, since it is such an obvious pull at instinctive human values of the time.

In the real world, especially back then, your sons were vitally important to people because men dominated the culture and had the rights to inherit property and carry on the family name, lead to future success, and care for you in old age, etc.

If someone had only one son, and they lost that son it was a huge tragedy, because that signaled the end of the family liniage and they lost the one who could provide for them in old age, so this was devestating.

Therefore, if a person sent their "only begotten son" into war, that was considered a heroic and self-sacraficing gesture on behalf of the parent, to risk losing their only son to "defend the nation", etc.

So, your "only begotten son" was your "most treasure thing on this earth" as a parent in those days, and perhaps even today for some people.

Therefore, what people thought of as the "most cherished thing" that one could sacrafic was their "only begotten son".

However, this obviously makes no sense at all if you are God.

Obviously, "sacraficing your only begotten son" is only a big deal if you are a mortal human who can't have more kids and has to worry about passing on your family name and having someone to provide for you. If you are God, then you don't need anyone to take care of you, you don't pass on a family name, and you can create as many "sons" as you want.

So, the whole "only begotten son" thing makes no sense at all from a theological or philosophical perspective, it was just an obvious story element to tie into things that humans saw as valuable.

Chili · 09-26-2006, 05:06 AM

Begotton means conceived in the womb where it is formed after the image of God. This is not the child that later is sacrificed, is it?

mountainman · 09-26-2006, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hinduwoman

Christ was God’s only begotten son.

Hi hinduwoman,

It seems to imply that divine exclusivity was being presaged
by the myopic and colloquial fabrication of the Galilaeans, at the time said
testament was being served upon the Roman Empire.

The political ramifications of myopic exclusivity were borne
out by the destruction of the ancient Hellenic religious culture
by the self-imposed "bishop of bishops", one very intelligent
supreme imperial mafia thug, Constantine, with effect from
the Council of Nicaea.

That's my brief summary, FWIW.

"Strive to give back
the Divine in yourself
to the Divine in All"

-- Final words of Plotinus (c.270 CE)
according to Eustochius

NAMASTE.

Pete Brown
AUTHORS of ANTIQUITY
http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/article_029.htm

hinduwoman · 09-26-2006, 06:39 AM

Ok, so no one knows exactly what this means. For all the Bible says, Jesus could have a human father then?

But if only God is his father, Jesus could of the seed of David only if Mary is descended from David. Does any geneology ever say this?

hinduwoman · 09-26-2006, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Hi hinduwoman,

It seems to imply that divine exclusivity was being presaged
by the myopic and colloquial fabrication of the Galilaeans, at the time said
testament was being served upon the Roman Empire.

The political ramifications of myopic exclusivity were borne
out by the destruction of the ancient Hellenic religious culture
by the self-imposed "bishop of bishops", one very intelligent
supreme imperial mafia thug, Constantine, with effect from
the Council of Nicaea.

That's my brief summary, FWIW.
NAMASTE.

Pete Brown
AUTHORS of ANTIQUITY
http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/article_029.htm

Mountainman that is an intetresting assertion.
But does the text really say 'only begotten son' or was it an English translation influenced by generations of Christian reworking of pagan myths?

mountainman · 09-26-2006, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hinduwoman

Does the text really say 'only begotten son' or was it an English translation influenced by generations of Christian reworking of pagan myths?

This is a good question and I have no ready answer.
Perhaps there will be someone here who has tracked
this phrase from the greek?

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

Atheos · 09-26-2006, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hinduwoman

Mountainman that is an intetresting assertion.
But does the text really say 'only begotten son' or was it an English translation influenced by generations of Christian reworking of pagan myths?

The text says "uion autou ton monogenh". The literal translation would be "son of him the only begotten". The word in question is 'monogenh". It is a combination word consisting of the words "mono" and "ginomai".

"mono" = one-of-a-kind, unique, etc.
"ginomai"= to come into existence.

"Uniquely brought into existence son" is maybe another possible way to translate the phrase. Only begotten is hard to beat.

HTH

spin · 09-26-2006, 08:18 AM

The Greek word is found in Lk 9:38 in which a father appeals to Jesus for his monogenhs, ie his only child. (See also Lk 7:12, 8:42, Heb 11:17.) This usage in a common context should indicate the meaning of the term.

spin

sbaii · 09-26-2006, 01:56 PM

[QUOTE=Chili;3783809]God is infinite and Lord God is eternal and eternally the essence of God made manifest . . . wherefore it is said that "without me God could no longer be."[.quote]

What is the source of this quote?

Quote:

The difference between eternity and infinity is that eternity has a beginning but no end and infinity has no beginning and no end. This would be how eternity is the continuity of infinity, continually procreating the essence of God after the image of God.

You're saying that either eternity or infinity are procreating the essence of God? I thought God did the procreating. Eternity and infinity are just concepts.

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09-26-2006, 05:06 AM	#23
Chili Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 11,885	Begotton means conceived in the womb where it is formed after the image of God. This is not the child that later is sacrificed, is it?

09-26-2006, 06:39 AM	#25
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	Ok, so no one knows exactly what this means. For all the Bible says, Jesus could have a human father then? But if only God is his father, Jesus could of the seed of David only if Mary is descended from David. Does any geneology ever say this?

09-26-2006, 08:18 AM	#29
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	The Greek word is found in Lk 9:38 in which a father appeals to Jesus for his monogenhs, ie his only child. (See also Lk 7:12, 8:42, Heb 11:17.) This usage in a common context should indicate the meaning of the term. spin

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