Freethought & Rationalism Archive

schriverja · 07-04-2011, 07:44 AM

Simon, did you overlook this post, or are you ignoring it? Because it seems you may be not addressing contradictions of your own (claims that Levitical laws are ceremonial only).

Sheshbazzar · 07-04-2011, 07:48 AM

אל־תען כסיל כאולתו פן־תשוה־לו גם־אתה׃

μὴ ἀποκρίνου ἄφρονι πρὸς τὴν ἐκείνου ἀφροσύνην ἵνα μὴ ὅμοιος γένῃ αὐτῷ׃

ne respondeas stulto iuxta stultitiam suam ne efficiaris ei similis׃

:banghead:

Sheshbazzar · 07-04-2011, 08:13 AM

HeHe. A Bible contradiction is solved.

And I both -did- and -didn't do- the thing at the very same time!

:hysterical:

Frank · 07-04-2011, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schriverja

Simon, did you overlook this post, or are you ignoring it? Because it seems you may be not addressing contradictions of your own (claims that Levitical laws are ceremonial only).

How does one "ceremonially" kill a homosexual for being homosexual (no pun intended towards your comments, but I couldn't resist the quip)? The old testament laws are pretty expansive, and seem to encroach in all areas of life, but another attribute they have, is they tend to reflect a very primitive understanding of science. For instance, why was pork determined to be such an offensive animal? Probably because pork is more prone to parasites (and the observations of primitive peoples told them that pork is more dangerous than other animals, and of course they had little understanding of how to deal with parasites and bacteria in animals). Shit, there's even regulations concerning mold in the bible (that demonstrates the author of the regulation was familiar with how mold accumulates, and the danger to human health posed by mold). The offensiveness of homosexuality was probably rooted in a very crude inductive analysis. Afterall, only a union between a man and woman can produce a child (at least naturally), reproduction is what all species strive for, therefore (in a very primitive environment, where no one understood modern biology) it probably made perfect sense to restrict homosexuality.

Now theists call all this stuff metaphorical, when it was really just bad science from the prescientific stage of our development. I call it more proof that the bible was all too human.

simon kole · 07-04-2011, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schriverja

Simon, did you overlook this post, or are you ignoring it? Because it seems you may be not addressing contradictions of your own (claims that Levitical laws are ceremonial only).

I am not ignoring it. I plan to get to it. Is a couple of days okay?

simon kole · 07-05-2011, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schriverja

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

<snipped>
The Decalogue was God's legislated moral duty to him, and to one another.
The Levitical laws are ceremonial laws, they are not moral laws.
<snipped>

Maybe I don't understand what you mean by Levitical Laws. If you mean anything other than the Decaloge I disagree with you that the Levitical Laws are ceremonial laws. There may be some that are ceremonial, but there's a lot that are, in fact, moral.

Well, not a good choice of words on my part. I was thinking of what is more commonly known about Levitical law as they are fulfilled in Jesus, the Christ.

But going back to the NT letter to the Hebrews, at 7:11-12. The priesthood and the law of Moses go together. The priesthood was instituted to carry out the laws in Leviticus. All of the people, without exception, were sinners subject to the law's condemnation. The Levitical laws provided a remedy for their sin, which needed a priestly system to execute and enforce those laws.

The NT letter to the Hebrews reveals that the Levitical priesthood was set aside with the new eternal High Priest and Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus, the Christ. Likewise, it was announced about midway through the Levitical priesthood that one was coming who would be a priest forever (Ps 110:4), which meant that the existing system would be giving way to something better. The NT letter to the Hebrews reveals the fulfillment of that announcement in Ps 110:4.

Regarding the moral laws, the NT reveals that love of God and love of neighbor will result in fulfilling the Decalogue, for love fulfills the Law (Ro 13:8-10).

So the Levitical laws have been set aside along with the Levitical priesthood (Ps 110:4; Heb 7:11-12), and loving our neighbor will result in fulfilling all the moral laws (Ro 13:8-10).

Quote:

Some examples:

“If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, 19 then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his hometown. 20 They shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel will hear of it and fear. Deut 21:18-21

This doesn't read as a ceremonial imperative to me. Do you think this was obsoleted by the "new covenant"?

Or (the subheading above this passages is The Laws on Morality):

13 “If any man takes a wife and goes in to her and then turns against her, 14 and charges her with shameful deeds and publicly defames her, and says, ‘I took this woman, but when I came near her, I did not find her a virgin,’ 15 then the girl’s father and her mother shall take and bring out the evidence of the girl’s virginity to the elders of the city at the gate. 16 The girl’s father shall say to the elders, ‘I gave my daughter to this man for a wife, but he turned against her; 17 and behold, he has charged her with shameful deeds, saying, “I did not find your daughter a virgin.” But this is the evidence of my daughter’s virginity.’ And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city. 18 So the elders of that city shall take the man and chastise him, 19 and they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give it to the girl’s father, because he publicly defamed a virgin of Israel. And she shall remain his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days.
20 “But if this charge is true, that the girl was not found a virgin, 21 then they shall bring out the girl to the doorway of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death because she has committed an act of folly in Israel by playing the harlot in her father’s house; thus you shall purge the evil from among you. Deut 22:13-21

Again, how was such a moral imperative fulfilled by Jesus' death?

And another:

“If there is a girl who is a virgin engaged to a man, and another man finds her in the city and lies with her, 24 then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city and you shall stone them to death; the girl, because she did not cry out in the city, and the man, because he has violated his neighbor’s wife. Thus you shall purge the evil from among you. Deut. 22:23-24

How was this fulfilled by Jesus' death? It clearly isn't a ceremonial law.

There's several others with any glancing over of Deut chapters 21-25 will show.

If you don't consider these Levitical, then should Christians still be following them?

edit to add:

Or how about these passages from Leviticus 19, are they ceremonial or moral?

11 “‘Do not steal.

“‘Do not lie.

“‘Do not deceive one another.

12 “‘Do not swear falsely by my name and so profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.

13 “‘Do not defraud or rob your neighbor.

“‘Do not hold back the wages of a hired worker overnight.

14 “‘Do not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block in front of the blind, but fear your God. I am the LORD.

15 “‘Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly.

16 “‘Do not go about spreading slander among your people.

“‘Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor’s life. I am the LORD.

17 “‘Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in their guilt.

18 “‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

19 “‘Keep my decrees.

“‘Do not mate different kinds of animals.

“‘Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.

“‘Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

20 “‘If a man sleeps with a female slave who is promised to another man but who has not been ransomed or given her freedom, there must be due punishment.[a] Yet they are not to be put to death, because she had not been freed. 21 The man, however, must bring a ram to the entrance to the tent of meeting for a guilt offering to the LORD. 22 With the ram of the guilt offering the priest is to make atonement for him before the LORD for the sin he has committed, and his sin will be forgiven.

23 “‘When you enter the land and plant any kind of fruit tree, regard its fruit as forbidden.[b] For three years you are to consider it forbidden[c]; it must not be eaten. 24 In the fourth year all its fruit will be holy, an offering of praise to the LORD. 25 But in the fifth year you may eat its fruit. In this way your harvest will be increased. I am the LORD your God.

26 “‘Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it.

“‘Do not practice divination or seek omens.

27 “‘Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.

28 “‘Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD.

29 “‘Do not degrade your daughter by making her a prostitute, or the land will turn to prostitution and be filled with wickedness.

30 “‘Observe my Sabbaths and have reverence for my sanctuary. I am the LORD.

31 “‘Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.

32 “‘Stand up in the presence of the aged, show respect for the elderly and revere your God. I am the LORD.

In your view, simon, should these be followed by Christians, or were they completely obsoleted...?

simon kole · 07-05-2011, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perspicuo

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perspicuo

Quote:

when the purpose for which the Levitical priesthood and the laws based on it were given is accomplished, they are set aside.

This is a Christian pretext, and addresses the fact of why the Law has been dumped for an amendment.

Does the OT contain an article for amendments? Even if it did, which I am unaware of, still it would be a logical inconsistency to have a loophole for amendment or even radical substitution, alongside "my law is eternal".

So it is clear to you too that the Law is not eternal, you just give a pretext, but then again, it is not eternal, it has been abrogated (discontinuated with authority). Even if God has the authority to do so (and the main thread of the whole Bible is he can do anything he wants), what he said was not true. God is a liar. Another inconsistency, this time with a attribute of God.

"Read my lips: my law is eternal"

Read my lips, the Sinaitic covenant, which God promised in Jer 31:31-32 would be replaced,

was not an eternal covenant, it was a conditional covenant (Ex 19:5).

Oh alright I stand corrected. Then the jerk was this guy:
Psalm 111:7-8: "The works of His hands are verity and judgment; all His commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness."

(BTW: Ex19:5 "Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession." doesn't say, "If not, I will change it" and enters in contradiction with the psalmist).

1) You will find in Lev 26:14-45 what occurs when "if not" occurs.

2) The Levitical law was set aside because the Levitical priesthood, which was instituted to execute and enforce it, was set aside, as was announced the priesthood would be in Ps 110:4, and would be replaced with a new priest forever.

Quote:

Logically inconsistent.

God isn't overly concerned with your notion of "logic," but with the execution of his plan which he set in place from all eternity.

schriverja · 07-05-2011, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

Quote:

Originally Posted by schriverja

Maybe I don't understand what you mean by Levitical Laws. If you mean anything other than the Decaloge I disagree with you that the Levitical Laws are ceremonial laws. There may be some that are ceremonial, but there's a lot that are, in fact, moral.

Well, not a good choice of words on my part. I was thinking of what is more commonly known about Levitical law as they are fulfilled in Jesus, the Christ.

But going back to the NT letter to the Hebrews, at 7:11-12. The priesthood and the law of Moses go together. The priesthood was instituted to carry out the laws in Leviticus. All of the people, without exception, were sinners subject to the law's condemnation. The Levitical laws provided a remedy for their sin, which needed a priestly system to execute and enforce those laws.

The NT letter to the Hebrews reveals that the Levitical priesthood was set aside with the new eternal High Priest and Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus, the Christ. Likewise, it was announced about midway through the Levitical priesthood that one was coming who would be a priest forever (Ps 110:4), which meant that the existing system would be giving way to something better.

Huh? Psalm 110:4 with some context

Quote:

1 The LORD says to my Lord:
“Sit at My right hand
Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”
2 The LORD will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion, saying,
“Rule in the midst of Your enemies.”
3 Your people will volunteer freely in the day of Your power;
In holy array, from the womb of the dawn,
Your youth are to You as the dew.

4 The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind,
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”
5 The Lord is at Your right hand;
He will shatter kings in the day of His wrath.

Notice the utter lack of future tense in the bolded part? Keep in mind this was written centuries before Jesus. I think it a bit of cherry-picking eisegesis on the author of Hebrews part (as well as you) to put in this passage anything that implies that God's covenant was any less than everlasting, as the many, many passages that have been cited have shown. So far as I know you have failed to cite an OT passage (not taken out of context) that imply that the Law was a temporary situation. You have been shown several that state that it was permanent, everlasting, to be honored by the generations of God's people, etc...

Quote:

The NT letter to the Hebrews reveals the fulfillment of that announcement in Ps 110:4.

Regarding the moral laws, the NT reveals that love of God and love of neighbor will result in fulfilling the Decalogue, for love fulfills the Law (Ro 13:8-10).

So the Levitical laws have been set aside along with the Levitical priesthood (Ps 110:4; Heb 7:11-12), and loving our neighbor will result in fulfilling all the moral laws (Ro 13:8-10).

Quote:

Some examples:

“If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, 19 then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his hometown. 20 They shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel will hear of it and fear. Deut 21:18-21

This doesn't read as a ceremonial imperative to me. Do you think this was obsoleted by the "new covenant"?

Or (the subheading above this passages is The Laws on Morality):

13 “If any man takes a wife and goes in to her and then turns against her, 14 and charges her with shameful deeds and publicly defames her, and says, ‘I took this woman, but when I came near her, I did not find her a virgin,’ 15 then the girl’s father and her mother shall take and bring out the evidence of the girl’s virginity to the elders of the city at the gate. 16 The girl’s father shall say to the elders, ‘I gave my daughter to this man for a wife, but he turned against her; 17 and behold, he has charged her with shameful deeds, saying, “I did not find your daughter a virgin.” But this is the evidence of my daughter’s virginity.’ And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city. 18 So the elders of that city shall take the man and chastise him, 19 and they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give it to the girl’s father, because he publicly defamed a virgin of Israel. And she shall remain his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days.
20 “But if this charge is true, that the girl was not found a virgin, 21 then they shall bring out the girl to the doorway of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death because she has committed an act of folly in Israel by playing the harlot in her father’s house; thus you shall purge the evil from among you. Deut 22:13-21

Again, how was such a moral imperative fulfilled by Jesus' death?

And another:

“If there is a girl who is a virgin engaged to a man, and another man finds her in the city and lies with her, 24 then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city and you shall stone them to death; the girl, because she did not cry out in the city, and the man, because he has violated his neighbor’s wife. Thus you shall purge the evil from among you. Deut. 22:23-24

How was this fulfilled by Jesus' death? It clearly isn't a ceremonial law.

There's several others with any glancing over of Deut chapters 21-25 will show.

If you don't consider these Levitical, then should Christians still be following them?

edit to add:

Or how about these passages from Leviticus 19, are they ceremonial or moral?

11 “‘Do not steal.

“‘Do not lie.

“‘Do not deceive one another.

12 “‘Do not swear falsely by my name and so profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.

13 “‘Do not defraud or rob your neighbor.

“‘Do not hold back the wages of a hired worker overnight.

14 “‘Do not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block in front of the blind, but fear your God. I am the LORD.

15 “‘Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly.

16 “‘Do not go about spreading slander among your people.

“‘Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor’s life. I am the LORD.

17 “‘Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in their guilt.

18 “‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

19 “‘Keep my decrees.

“‘Do not mate different kinds of animals.

“‘Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.

“‘Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

20 “‘If a man sleeps with a female slave who is promised to another man but who has not been ransomed or given her freedom, there must be due punishment.[a] Yet they are not to be put to death, because she had not been freed. 21 The man, however, must bring a ram to the entrance to the tent of meeting for a guilt offering to the LORD. 22 With the ram of the guilt offering the priest is to make atonement for him before the LORD for the sin he has committed, and his sin will be forgiven.

23 “‘When you enter the land and plant any kind of fruit tree, regard its fruit as forbidden.[b] For three years you are to consider it forbidden[c]; it must not be eaten. 24 In the fourth year all its fruit will be holy, an offering of praise to the LORD. 25 But in the fifth year you may eat its fruit. In this way your harvest will be increased. I am the LORD your God.

26 “‘Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it.

“‘Do not practice divination or seek omens.

27 “‘Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.

28 “‘Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD.

29 “‘Do not degrade your daughter by making her a prostitute, or the land will turn to prostitution and be filled with wickedness.

30 “‘Observe my Sabbaths and have reverence for my sanctuary. I am the LORD.

31 “‘Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.

32 “‘Stand up in the presence of the aged, show respect for the elderly and revere your God. I am the LORD.

In your view, simon, should these be followed by Christians, or were they completely obsoleted...?

So simon, do you observe the Sabbath? Do you stand in the presence of the aged? Do you not cut the hair at the corners of your beard or sides of your hair? Do you not wear clothing made with different materials?

simon kole · 07-05-2011, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schriverja

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

Quote:

Originally Posted by schriverja

Maybe I don't understand what you mean by Levitical Laws. If you mean anything other than the Decaloge I disagree with you that the Levitical Laws are ceremonial laws. There may be some that are ceremonial, but there's a lot that are, in fact, moral.

Well, not a good choice of words on my part. I was thinking of what is more commonly known about Levitical law as they are fulfilled in Jesus, the Christ.

But going back to the NT letter to the Hebrews, at 7:11-12. The priesthood and the law of Moses go together. The priesthood was instituted to carry out the laws in Leviticus. All of the people, without exception, were sinners subject to the law's condemnation. The Levitical laws provided a remedy for their sin, which needed a priestly system to execute and enforce those laws.

The NT letter to the Hebrews reveals that the Levitical priesthood was set aside with the new eternal High Priest and Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus, the Christ. Likewise, it was announced about midway through the Levitical priesthood that one was coming who would be a priest forever (Ps 110:4), which meant that the existing system would be giving way to something better.

Huh? Psalm 110:4 with some context

Quote:

1 The LORD says to my Lord:
“Sit at My right hand
Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”
2 The LORD will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion, saying,
“Rule in the midst of Your enemies.”
3 Your people will volunteer freely in the day of Your power;
In holy array, from the womb of the dawn,
Your youth are to You as the dew.

4 The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind,
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”
5 The Lord is at Your right hand;
He will shatter kings in the day of His wrath.

Notice the utter lack of future tense in the bolded part? Keep in mind this was written centuries before Jesus. I think it a bit of cherry-picking eisegesis on the author of Hebrews part (as well as you) to put in this passage anything that implies that God's covenant was any less than everlasting, as the many, many passages that have been cited have shown. So far as I know you have failed to cite an OT passage (not taken out of context) that imply that the Law was a temporary situation. You have been shown several that state that it was permanent, everlasting, to be honored by the generations of God's people, etc...

This goes to the parameter of my purview, explained to you here.

Quote:

The NT letter to the Hebrews reveals the fulfillment of that announcement in Ps 110:4.

Regarding the moral laws, the NT reveals that love of God and love of neighbor will result in fulfilling the Decalogue, for love fulfills the Law (Ro 13:8-10).

So the Levitical laws have been set aside along with the Levitical priesthood (Ps 110:4; Heb 7:11-12), and loving our neighbor will result in fulfilling all the moral laws (Ro 13:8-10).

Quote:

Some examples:

“If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, 19 then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his hometown. 20 They shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel will hear of it and fear. Deut 21:18-21

This doesn't read as a ceremonial imperative to me. Do you think this was obsoleted by the "new covenant"?

Or (the subheading above this passages is The Laws on Morality):

13 “If any man takes a wife and goes in to her and then turns against her, 14 and charges her with shameful deeds and publicly defames her, and says, ‘I took this woman, but when I came near her, I did not find her a virgin,’ 15 then the girl’s father and her mother shall take and bring out the evidence of the girl’s virginity to the elders of the city at the gate. 16 The girl’s father shall say to the elders, ‘I gave my daughter to this man for a wife, but he turned against her; 17 and behold, he has charged her with shameful deeds, saying, “I did not find your daughter a virgin.” But this is the evidence of my daughter’s virginity.’ And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city. 18 So the elders of that city shall take the man and chastise him, 19 and they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give it to the girl’s father, because he publicly defamed a virgin of Israel. And she shall remain his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days.
20 “But if this charge is true, that the girl was not found a virgin, 21 then they shall bring out the girl to the doorway of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death because she has committed an act of folly in Israel by playing the harlot in her father’s house; thus you shall purge the evil from among you. Deut 22:13-21

Again, how was such a moral imperative fulfilled by Jesus' death?

And another:

“If there is a girl who is a virgin engaged to a man, and another man finds her in the city and lies with her, 24 then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city and you shall stone them to death; the girl, because she did not cry out in the city, and the man, because he has violated his neighbor’s wife. Thus you shall purge the evil from among you. Deut. 22:23-24

How was this fulfilled by Jesus' death? It clearly isn't a ceremonial law.

There's several others with any glancing over of Deut chapters 21-25 will show.

If you don't consider these Levitical, then should Christians still be following them?

edit to add:

Or how about these passages from Leviticus 19, are they ceremonial or moral?

11 “‘Do not steal.

“‘Do not lie.

“‘Do not deceive one another.

12 “‘Do not swear falsely by my name and so profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.

13 “‘Do not defraud or rob your neighbor.

“‘Do not hold back the wages of a hired worker overnight.

14 “‘Do not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block in front of the blind, but fear your God. I am the LORD.

15 “‘Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly.

16 “‘Do not go about spreading slander among your people.

“‘Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor’s life. I am the LORD.

17 “‘Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in their guilt.

18 “‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

19 “‘Keep my decrees.

“‘Do not mate different kinds of animals.

“‘Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.

“‘Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

20 “‘If a man sleeps with a female slave who is promised to another man but who has not been ransomed or given her freedom, there must be due punishment.[a] Yet they are not to be put to death, because she had not been freed. 21 The man, however, must bring a ram to the entrance to the tent of meeting for a guilt offering to the LORD. 22 With the ram of the guilt offering the priest is to make atonement for him before the LORD for the sin he has committed, and his sin will be forgiven.

23 “‘When you enter the land and plant any kind of fruit tree, regard its fruit as forbidden.[b] For three years you are to consider it forbidden[c]; it must not be eaten. 24 In the fourth year all its fruit will be holy, an offering of praise to the LORD. 25 But in the fifth year you may eat its fruit. In this way your harvest will be increased. I am the LORD your God.

26 “‘Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it.

“‘Do not practice divination or seek omens.

27 “‘Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.

28 “‘Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD.

29 “‘Do not degrade your daughter by making her a prostitute, or the land will turn to prostitution and be filled with wickedness.

30 “‘Observe my Sabbaths and have reverence for my sanctuary. I am the LORD.

31 “‘Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.

32 “‘Stand up in the presence of the aged, show respect for the elderly and revere your God. I am the LORD.

In your view, simon, should these be followed by Christians, or were they completely obsoleted...?

So simon, do you observe the Sabbath? Do you stand in the presence of the aged? Do you not cut the hair at the corners of your beard or sides of your hair? Do you not wear clothing made with different materials?

Addressed here.

simon kole · 07-05-2011, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

Quote:

Originally Posted by schriverja

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

Quote:

Originally Posted by schriverja

Maybe I don't understand what you mean by Levitical Laws. If you mean anything other than the Decaloge I disagree with you that the Levitical Laws are ceremonial laws. There may be some that are ceremonial, but there's a lot that are, in fact, moral.

Well, not a good choice of words on my part. I was thinking of what is more commonly known about Levitical law as they are fulfilled in Jesus, the Christ.

But going back to the NT letter to the Hebrews, at 7:11-12. The priesthood and the law of Moses go together. The priesthood was instituted to carry out the laws in Leviticus. All of the people, without exception, were sinners subject to the law's condemnation. The Levitical laws provided a remedy for their sin, which needed a priestly system to execute and enforce those laws.

The NT letter to the Hebrews reveals that the Levitical priesthood was set aside with the new eternal High Priest and Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus, the Christ. Likewise, it was announced about midway through the Levitical priesthood that one was coming who would be a priest forever (Ps 110:4), which meant that the existing system would be giving way to something better.

Huh? Psalm 110:4 with some context

Quote:

1 The LORD says to my Lord:
“Sit at My right hand
Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”
2 The LORD will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion, saying,
“Rule in the midst of Your enemies.”
3 Your people will volunteer freely in the day of Your power;
In holy array, from the womb of the dawn,
Your youth are to You as the dew.

4 The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind,
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”
5 The Lord is at Your right hand;
He will shatter kings in the day of His wrath.

Notice the utter lack of future tense in the bolded part? Keep in mind this was written centuries before Jesus. I think it a bit of cherry-picking eisegesis on the author of Hebrews part (as well as you) to put in this passage anything that implies that God's covenant was any less than everlasting, as the many, many passages that have been cited have shown. So far as I know you have failed to cite an OT passage (not taken out of context) that imply that the Law was a temporary situation. You have been shown several that state that it was permanent, everlasting, to be honored by the generations of God's people, etc...

This goes to the parameter of my purview, explained to you here.

Quote:

The NT letter to the Hebrews reveals the fulfillment of that announcement in Ps 110:4.

Regarding the moral laws, the NT reveals that love of God and love of neighbor will result in fulfilling the Decalogue, for love fulfills the Law (Ro 13:8-10).

So the Levitical laws have been set aside along with the Levitical priesthood (Ps 110:4; Heb 7:11-12), and loving our neighbor will result in fulfilling all the moral laws (Ro 13:8-10).

Quote:

Some examples:

“If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, 19 then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his hometown. 20 They shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel will hear of it and fear. Deut 21:18-21

This doesn't read as a ceremonial imperative to me. Do you think this was obsoleted by the "new covenant"?

Or (the subheading above this passages is The Laws on Morality):

13 “If any man takes a wife and goes in to her and then turns against her, 14 and charges her with shameful deeds and publicly defames her, and says, ‘I took this woman, but when I came near her, I did not find her a virgin,’ 15 then the girl’s father and her mother shall take and bring out the evidence of the girl’s virginity to the elders of the city at the gate. 16 The girl’s father shall say to the elders, ‘I gave my daughter to this man for a wife, but he turned against her; 17 and behold, he has charged her with shameful deeds, saying, “I did not find your daughter a virgin.” But this is the evidence of my daughter’s virginity.’ And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city. 18 So the elders of that city shall take the man and chastise him, 19 and they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give it to the girl’s father, because he publicly defamed a virgin of Israel. And she shall remain his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days.
20 “But if this charge is true, that the girl was not found a virgin, 21 then they shall bring out the girl to the doorway of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death because she has committed an act of folly in Israel by playing the harlot in her father’s house; thus you shall purge the evil from among you. Deut 22:13-21

Again, how was such a moral imperative fulfilled by Jesus' death?

And another:

“If there is a girl who is a virgin engaged to a man, and another man finds her in the city and lies with her, 24 then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city and you shall stone them to death; the girl, because she did not cry out in the city, and the man, because he has violated his neighbor’s wife. Thus you shall purge the evil from among you. Deut. 22:23-24

How was this fulfilled by Jesus' death? It clearly isn't a ceremonial law.

There's several others with any glancing over of Deut chapters 21-25 will show.

If you don't consider these Levitical, then should Christians still be following them?

edit to add:

Or how about these passages from Leviticus 19, are they ceremonial or moral?

11 “‘Do not steal.

“‘Do not lie.

“‘Do not deceive one another.

12 “‘Do not swear falsely by my name and so profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.

13 “‘Do not defraud or rob your neighbor.

“‘Do not hold back the wages of a hired worker overnight.

14 “‘Do not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block in front of the blind, but fear your God. I am the LORD.

15 “‘Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly.

16 “‘Do not go about spreading slander among your people.

“‘Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor’s life. I am the LORD.

17 “‘Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in their guilt.

18 “‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

19 “‘Keep my decrees.

“‘Do not mate different kinds of animals.

“‘Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.

“‘Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

20 “‘If a man sleeps with a female slave who is promised to another man but who has not been ransomed or given her freedom, there must be due punishment.[a] Yet they are not to be put to death, because she had not been freed. 21 The man, however, must bring a ram to the entrance to the tent of meeting for a guilt offering to the LORD. 22 With the ram of the guilt offering the priest is to make atonement for him before the LORD for the sin he has committed, and his sin will be forgiven.

23 “‘When you enter the land and plant any kind of fruit tree, regard its fruit as forbidden.[b] For three years you are to consider it forbidden[c]; it must not be eaten. 24 In the fourth year all its fruit will be holy, an offering of praise to the LORD. 25 But in the fifth year you may eat its fruit. In this way your harvest will be increased. I am the LORD your God.

26 “‘Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it.

“‘Do not practice divination or seek omens.

27 “‘Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.

28 “‘Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD.

29 “‘Do not degrade your daughter by making her a prostitute, or the land will turn to prostitution and be filled with wickedness.

30 “‘Observe my Sabbaths and have reverence for my sanctuary. I am the LORD.

31 “‘Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.

32 “‘Stand up in the presence of the aged, show respect for the elderly and revere your God. I am the LORD.

In your view, simon, should these be followed by Christians, or were they completely obsoleted...?

So simon, do you observe the Sabbath? Do you stand in the presence of the aged? Do you not cut the hair at the corners of your beard or sides of your hair? Do you not wear clothing made with different materials?

Addressed here.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-04-2011, 07:44 AM	#371
schriverja Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Western Connecticut Posts: 1,545	Simon, did you overlook this post, or are you ignoring it? Because it seems you may be not addressing contradictions of your own (claims that Levitical laws are ceremonial only).

07-04-2011, 07:48 AM	#372
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	אל־תען כסיל כאולתו פן־תשוה־לו גם־אתה׃ μὴ ἀποκρίνου ἄφρονι πρὸς τὴν ἐκείνου ἀφροσύνην ἵνα μὴ ὅμοιος γένῃ αὐτῷ׃ ne respondeas stulto iuxta stultitiam suam ne efficiaris ei similis׃ :banghead:

07-04-2011, 08:13 AM	#373
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	HeHe. A Bible contradiction is solved. And I both -did- and -didn't do- the thing at the very same time! :hysterical:

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.