stephan huller

Hey don't work so hard. Take a break. Relax.

maryhelena

Indeed nothing productive can come out of a discussion with Stephan Huller. When someone puts up a thread with a controversial subject matter - then it is the order of the day that that controversial subject be challenged. However, in a Stephan Huller thread, objections to his wild theories are received with a far from scholarly, or gentlemanly, exchange. Instead, one puts oneself in the path of abuse from Stephan Huller. I find this a sad state of affairs for this forum. It does raise the question of why Stephan Huller is allowed to address his opponents in the way that he does? Listed below are examples, from this thread, of the sort of abusive that Stephan Huller has been sending my way.

This is an open forum where people can present their ideas. They should feel free to do so without being subject to abusive language. They should also be prepared to take criticism of their ideas with dignity and humility.

#41

The only reason that Mary Helena brings this up is that she has any even stupider theory about Herodian rulers and the gospel. I only hesitate to mention this because - and here is the worst thing about this forum - there are people here like Mary Helena who pick fights with people like myself, Earl Doherty and others - for the sole purpose of introducing her own ideas which no one wants to talk about.

#81

Since you seem incapable of actually digesting new information that contradicts your point of view ...

#93

Your myopia is becoming borderline crazy.

#100

What are you talking about? Have you lost your mind?

#104

What the fuck are you talking about? Get the wax out of your ears, put your reading glasses, stop drinking whatever you are drinking or smoking whatever you are smoking.

#108

I'd tell you to go jump in a lake or something stronger but I am sure you'd start playing the abused victim card so why don't you go back to your fantasy world where real evidence doesn't allow the light to shine in.

There are lots of 'goddess forums' where you can talk about the kinds of things you like to talk about without having them stand up to the rigor of factual examination. Why don't you spend your time there?

#243

you Mary Helena are too demented

#246

Because all you are is a stupid theory about the Herodians.

Duke Leto

Try and be consistent. First you want me to read all the variant texts of Josephus and now you don't want me bother rehashing your own arguments?

Grog

Price clarified this in the comments below his review:

"Stephen,

See my post on the first page, attempting to clarify this. I am actually not convinced of Hoeller's thesis. I never said or implied I was. My claim is that the author is brilliant, imaginative (a trait absolutely necessary to do pioneering work in the NT), and in command of an ocean of ancient material. I learn much from reading him. Whether I concur (which I don't) with the punch line is really beside the point.

Bob Price "

Grog

Andrew, I read Detering (was it Detering or was it just on his site?) saying that "Atomos" was probably original here. He also said that "Atomos" is related to the name "Paul," which means "small." Can you comment on that?

Duke Leto

I'm not disputing points #2 and #3. I'm questioning Stephan's honesty and intellectual integrity, the latter being vitally necessary to self-criticize and absorb and accommodate criticism in a manner that strengthens one's own theories. Stephan has not once shown a single shred of the latter quality in our entire conversation.

Grog

First, I am not on board with SH on Josephus, however, why would you think it was only Marcionites who were served by a "wrath of God" judgment against the Jews?

Would it be your position that this is a Marcionite view in Paul?

1 Thess 2:14-16

You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.

If this is an interpolation, would you say it was by Christian or Marcionites? If it is original to Paul, then, unless you are arguing that Paul was a Marcionite, we would have to accept that early Christians also held this view. If it is an interpolation by Christians, then it serves the point. Even if it is original to Marcion, then Christians thought enough of it to leave it alone.

I think your assumption here is flawed. We need more, though, to accept SH's view of a late forged Josephus. I am not yet convinced. Toto's point, above, though, stands.

Grog

I was just agreeing with you and providing additional evidence on this beyond your attestation of the email correspondence.

Grog

This is the most difficult thread to read. Can we use the reply buttons beneath the message we reply to? The quotes buttons? That would really help us who use the threaded mode understand where to read. I use hybrid, but threads really help sort things out.

Grog

I agree with your position against Stephan's dating of Josephus. However, you are using the argument from incredulity here. We cannot imagine that a forger would go into such detail, it is difficult. That doesn't mean someone wouldn't do it. We might not know why they did it, but that doesn't rule out them doing it. Stranger things...

Stephan--I am interested in your points about Josephus referring to himself in the third person in his narrative. Is this typical of ancient authors of history or not?