Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Apikorus · 03-31-2006, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JW

There was no intent above to imply that you are anything less than fluent in Hebrew. Only to point out a good parallel to Psalm 17 that I think you missed the first time (as well as smear Justin as a Liar for Jesus).

Joe, I'm willing to entertain your textual suggestions, but don't piss on my back and then tell me it's raining. When you put my words in the mouth of Justin, who in your dialog represents an ignorant Christian apologist, that just pisses me off. Don't piss me off, Joe.

Quote:

The boychicks at Jews for Judaism generally discount Nahal Hever as coming from the anti-Orthodox.

Well then "never halakha" or "never holeikh" would be better choices. It is, of course, anachronistic to label anything pre-rabbinic as "anti-Orthodox." But then again, such boychiks generally unswervingly accept rabbinic dogma as if it were a bat qol.

JoeWallack · 03-31-2006, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apikorus

Don't piss me off, Joe.

JW:
Normally this would guarantee a pissy response. But since you have so much to offer here I will try not to piss you off here.

Joseph

Apikorus · 03-31-2006, 03:42 PM

I think spin's point about the alef is well taken. While KRW means "they dug," the meaning of K)RW is unclear. The LXX translator evidently read this as KRW, but that could have simply been an educated guess on his part. Phlox proffers that the aleph might be a mater, but spin remains unconvinced (and a little prickly, in Phlox's estimation).

To test the notion that the alef is a mater lectionis, we'd want to look at other instances of KRH in the DSS. I know that 11Q5 contains Ps 119:85 ("karu li zeidim shichot..."); this should be in DJD4 which I can check after Shabbat. According to the table in the back of vol. 2 of Flint and Vanderkam (DSS-50), Ps 7:15 is in 5/6Hev/SePs, Ps 94:13 is in 4QPs(b), and Jer 18:20,22 are in 4QJer(a). I believe that aside from Ps 22:17, those are the only instances of KRH in the Hebrew Bible which are even candidates for an alef mater and which are represented in the DSS.

Of course, there are probably a few instances of KRH in the noncanonical DSS. For example, the Damascus Covenant quotes Num 21:18 ("the well that the princes dug...") on col. 6. line 9 of CD-A (4Q267 fr. 2). The Hebrew text of the nonbiblical DSS are reproduced in Martinez and Tigchelaar, which I have at hand. Apparently CD-A quotes Num 21:18 without inserting an alef into KRWH.

This is just a start, but if Phlox's suggestion is to be tested, I think one must roll up one's sleeves and look for examples of KRH in the DSS.

Phlox Pyros · 03-31-2006, 04:44 PM

What is the date of 5/6 Hev? The tables I have from the DJD do not list it.

JoeWallack · 03-31-2006, 06:38 PM

JW:
Ookay, time to Summarize what we have so far for the most important Category of evidence for the Original offending word of Psalm 22:17:

Original Hebrew Textual Evidence:

1) The Majority manuscript word = K ) R Y = Like a lion

Notes -

The supporting manuscripts go back to approximately the 9th century and there are relatively few this old.

2) A Minority manuscript word = K ) R W = Meaning uncertain

Notes -

Spelling - Contains a root word, K R W, meaning "to dig". Verbs were occasionally written at this time with such a ")" included. However, this would be the only example for this specific verb for this time period.

Nahal Hever - An approximate first century scrap containing the offending word which some professionals identify as K ) R W. There is professional disagreement as to whether the last letter of the word in question is sufficiently legible so as to be positively identified. There is a majority professional opinion that for legible writing at Nahal Hever "Y" and "W" can be distinguished the majority of the time. However, "Y" at the end of words at Nahal Hever tends to be longer.

3) A Minority manuscript word = K R W = They dig"

Notes -

Supported by two manuscripts.

Next up - Hebrew Commentary Evidence

Joseph

JoeWallack · 04-01-2006, 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

I am a worm, not a man;

…a gang of evil men crowd around me,
they pierce my hands and feet.

The Tell Asmar seal from 2300 BCE depicts just such a worm being pierced.

http://www.ifar.org/cunieformfig5.jpg

The context of Psalm 22 supports pierce because it appears to be a combination of earlier conflict myths.

JW
Loomis' post above has convinced me that "Pierced" is Original. Moderators, please close this Thread immediately.

In addition after actually reading the new anti-semitic link that JP Holding has at his site:

http://www.geocities.com/shutupmanje...THETHRONE.html

instead of just making fun of it I decided to finally watch Mel Gibson's movie (forgot the name) and then re-read "The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ". For the first time I understood how Jesus suffering for a few hours on a stake thousands of years ago explained why most of my innocent relatives were tortured and murdered by Christian Nazis over a 5 year period.

My good friend, Rabbi Singer, head of Outreach Judaism, had the exact same experience so we began to study JP Holding's website, Tektonics.org, together while periodically rereading Isaiah Chapter 53 in light of the new information which this website provided us and avoiding my http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page Counter-missionary site. It wasn't long before we found the truth that we were looking for, that Jesus Christ was the prophesied Jewish Messiah according to the Tanakh. Hallelujah Amen.

Effective immediately ErrancyWiki will be closed and then merged with Schmuelman!'s Messianic Apologetic site as an evangelistic tool.

Amalek, please email JP Holding (he has me blocked) and tell him I would like to have him baptise me.

In Hymn, Joseph Elizabeth Wallack

Loomis · 04-01-2006, 03:28 PM

According to what I've read the word for worm (towla` - Strong's 08438) in verse 6 is feminine.

Is this correct?

The worm was a “she.” :love:

Would anyone like to comment on this?

Loomis · 04-01-2006, 03:44 PM

In Enuma Elish there is a female worm/ dragon/ serpent/ Rahab/ leviathan named Tiamat that gets attacked by Marduk.

Marduk was the son of a bigger god named Ea. Just like Baal was the son of Dagon, and Yahweh was the son of El.

Marduk traples Tiamat, dries her up, and pierces her.

Quote:

Psalm 22

I cry out during the day,
but the gods do not hear me,
and during the night my there is no silence to me.

Quote:

Enuma Elish

By day I can not rest, by night I can not lie down in peace.

Quote:

Psalm 22

The roof of my mouth is as dry as a piece of pottery;
my tongue sticks to my jaw.

Quote:

Enuma Elish

As Tiamat opened her mouth to its full extent,
He drove in the evil wind, while as yet she had not shut her lips.

Quote:

Psalm 22

like water I am poured out

Quote:

Enuma Elish

And bade them not to let her waters come forth.

Quote:

Psalm 22

All my bones are dislocated.

Quote:

Enuma Elish

The neck of Tiamat shalt thou swiftly trample under foot.

Quote:

Psalm 22

I will declare your name to my brothers!
In the middle of the assembly I will praise you!
…
You are the reason I offer praise in the great assembly;

Quote:

Enuma Elish

I have uttered your spell, in the assembly of the gods I have raised you to power.

As Tiamat opened her mouth to its full extent,
He drove in the evil wind, while as yet she had not shut her lips.
The terrible winds filled her belly,
And her courage was taken from her, and her mouth she opened wide.
He seized the spear and burst her belly,
He severed her inward parts, he pierced her heart.
He overcame her and cut off her life;
He cast down her body and stood upon it.

And of course Baal did the same thing to Yamm.

Loomis · 04-01-2006, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

Next up - Hebrew Commentary Evidence

Quote:

Talmud (b. B. Bat. 74b)

When God desired to create the world, he said to the Prince of the Sea, 'Open your mouth and swallow up all the waters of the world!' The latter answered, 'Lord of the universe, I have enough with my own!' Whereupon God trampled on him and slew him, as it is said, 'By his power he beat down the Sea, and by his understanding he smote Rahab.'

Hebrew commentaries suggest that Tiamat got a sex change and was renamed Rahab. Rahab was called Pride of the Sea and Majesty of the Sea.

Quote:

Psalm 89

Yahweh, the god of Sabaoth, who is like you? Mighty Yahweh, clothed in your faithfulness!

You control the Majesty of the Sea, when its waves ride high, you calm them;

you split Rahab in two like a carcass and scattered your enemies with your mighty arm.

JW: I am bitter and hateful.

Columbo: I am more real than Joe’s god.

Phlox Pyros · 04-01-2006, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

...my http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page Counter-missionary site

You had better change Psalm 22 to read something other than "pierced" if that is your site!

03-31-2006, 06:38 PM	#105
JoeWallack Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Nazareth Posts: 2,357	Summary - Original Hebrew Textual Evidence JW: Ookay, time to Summarize what we have so far for the most important Category of evidence for the Original offending word of Psalm 22:17: Original Hebrew Textual Evidence: 1) The Majority manuscript word = K ) R Y = Like a lion Notes - The supporting manuscripts go back to approximately the 9th century and there are relatively few this old. 2) A Minority manuscript word = K ) R W = Meaning uncertain Notes - Spelling - Contains a root word, K R W, meaning "to dig". Verbs were occasionally written at this time with such a ")" included. However, this would be the only example for this specific verb for this time period. Nahal Hever - An approximate first century scrap containing the offending word which some professionals identify as K ) R W. There is professional disagreement as to whether the last letter of the word in question is sufficiently legible so as to be positively identified. There is a majority professional opinion that for legible writing at Nahal Hever "Y" and "W" can be distinguished the majority of the time. However, "Y" at the end of words at Nahal Hever tends to be longer. 3) A Minority manuscript word = K R W = They dig" Notes - Supported by two manuscripts. Next up - Hebrew Commentary Evidence Joseph

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03-31-2006, 03:42 PM	#103
Apikorus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,396	I think spin's point about the alef is well taken. While KRW means "they dug," the meaning of K)RW is unclear. The LXX translator evidently read this as KRW, but that could have simply been an educated guess on his part. Phlox proffers that the aleph might be a mater, but spin remains unconvinced (and a little prickly, in Phlox's estimation). To test the notion that the alef is a mater lectionis, we'd want to look at other instances of KRH in the DSS. I know that 11Q5 contains Ps 119:85 ("karu li zeidim shichot..."); this should be in DJD4 which I can check after Shabbat. According to the table in the back of vol. 2 of Flint and Vanderkam (DSS-50), Ps 7:15 is in 5/6Hev/SePs, Ps 94:13 is in 4QPs(b), and Jer 18:20,22 are in 4QJer(a). I believe that aside from Ps 22:17, those are the only instances of KRH in the Hebrew Bible which are even candidates for an alef mater and which are represented in the DSS. Of course, there are probably a few instances of KRH in the noncanonical DSS. For example, the Damascus Covenant quotes Num 21:18 ("the well that the princes dug...") on col. 6. line 9 of CD-A (4Q267 fr. 2). The Hebrew text of the nonbiblical DSS are reproduced in Martinez and Tigchelaar, which I have at hand. Apparently CD-A quotes Num 21:18 without inserting an alef into KRWH. This is just a start, but if Phlox's suggestion is to be tested, I think one must roll up one's sleeves and look for examples of KRH in the DSS.

03-31-2006, 04:44 PM	#104
Phlox Pyros Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: 7th Heaven Posts: 406	What is the date of 5/6 Hev? The tables I have from the DJD do not list it.

04-01-2006, 03:28 PM	#107
Loomis Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: The recesses of Zaphon Posts: 969	According to what I've read the word for worm (towla` - Strong's 08438) in verse 6 is feminine. Is this correct? The worm was a “she.” :love: Would anyone like to comment on this?

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