Clinical

So Muhammed travelling from Mecca to Jerusalem in an instant, witnessing the presence of God and performing the same miracles as Moses not miraculous?
God making the Pagans of Quraysh blind all of a sudden so that Muhammed could flee to Mecca is not miraculous?
This would be a deviation from the thread. Go read any neutral book on the Dead Sea Scrolls.
It is not. Why would He preserve a scripture, that was sent for specific times and peoples, for all time?
The Quran (Not "Koran"), isnot subject to that same possibility because God promised to preserve it. The same cannot be said of the Bible.
There is a difference between God fulfilling His words and preserving certain Scriptures.
Because the Quran claims to be the last Book for all humanity.
The Quran refered to Eisa and the Injil to rebuke the Christians for their deviation from God. Christians follow 4 Gospels that supposedly were written by "eye-witnesses". What the Quran says is that God sent Eisa a book called the Injil, same like Moses with the Torah and Muhammed with the Quran. The Quran tells the Christians to follow that Injil, and following that Injil will lead them to Islam.
Indeed, the Book that was sent to Moses from was the word of God. The book that the Jews had at the time of Muhammed was not the Torah of Moses. The Quran speaks against that book as I said.
First of all the Injil is lost. Christians no longer have that book. What you have are 4 biographies of Jesus.
Secondly the Torah here is the Torah that was sent to Moses. The Torah in the Quran always refers to the Torah at the time of Moses.
Thirdly the verse asks them to follow the Quran, which represents the original Torah and Injil. If the verse meant that the Torah at the time of Muhammed was genuine, it would not have asked them to follow the Quran.
The Quran (Not Muhammed) was talking about the Torah given unto Moses, the original Torah.
Grammar in English is different from Arabic grammar, thus some mistranslations exist. The verse is in present perfect tense.
So why did you mention it?
The visions are fake man. Get over it. If they were true then there would be nothing preventing your God from appearing in person to people all over the world.

Net2004

2 He taught them many things by parables, and in his teaching said:
3 "Listen! A farmer went out to sow his seed...
9 Then Jesus said, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."
10 When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him
about the parables. 11 He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12 so that, they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be
forgiven!'"

(Matt 13:36) Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him saying, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."(Matt 13:37) He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man.

My understanding of the verses in mark above is that IMPORTANT teachings were coded into parables and the outsiders would never understand and never take in what they heard because the teachings were coded.
note the word "ever" is used
the first definition for "ever" to come up on microsoft vista was
"at any time"

so at any time they (outsiders) will never understand and never perceive because what is taught is in parables.

(Mark 8:34)
Then Jesus called the crowd, along with his disciples, and said to them...
(Mark 8:38) For if anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."

if the outsiders never understood and never percieved then how did they know that the son of man who will come is jesus himself? without knowing who the sower of the good seed is , the crowd thought the son of man is some other guy.

sschlichter

from wikipedia

In Islamic tradition, the Isra and Mi'raj (Arabic: الإسراء والمعراج‎, al-’Isrā’ wal-Mi‘rāğ) are the two parts of a journey that Muhammad took in one night, around the year 620. Many Muslims consider it a physical journey but some Islamic scholars consider it a dream.[1] A brief sketch of the story is in verses 1 and 60 of one of the Qur'an chapters (#17: sura al isra), and other details were filled in from the supplemental writings, the hadith.


Did anyone see him fly to Jerusalem? This is a perfect example of the difference. No collaboration. If you get some of those pagans to write about it, then that would be something. this is what occurred with Jesus. The NT is written from all manner of person. Paul used to kill Christians until he became one - thru a vision.

This whole conversation is a deviation. The fact is that the Torah we have is the same one that the Palestiinian Jews had and is the same one translated into Greek. They remain consistent. Nothing changes the message.

Here is how I know that is not true. Mohammed in Surah 5:68-69 is referring to the Jews and Christians of his day and admonishes them for not following the Torah and the Injil. Why would he insist they follow a book that is lost or has been corrupted?

Surah 5:68-69
Say: O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people. Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good -- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.

There is really no point in continuing this. If you do not want to provide the proof of the corruption then let's just leave it at that. I would rather argue with the atheists.

sschlichter

I think that is incorrect because of the verses from Mark that were important teachings that he taught in public.

I think this is a good translation.

But to those outside, everything is in parables,
Mark 4:12 so that "although they look they may look but not see,
and although they hear they may hear but not understand,
so they may not repent and be forgiven."

Jesus was clear who the Son of man was.

Jesus to the crowds...
(Mark 8:38) For if anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."

WVIncagold

Based on what?

WVIncagold

Well at least you have narowed your problem down. Ignorance is curable though. the first step is realizing it.

sschlichter

What, you need examples of our immorality?

WVIncagold

No what are you basing morality on?

Clinical

I never heard of any Islamic scholars who believed it to be a dream. Anyway the Arabic word here is "asraa", which is physical. So their position, if existent, is false.
People did certainly see him because this was identical to Moses' encounter with God at Mount Toor (Sinai). So there is certainly collaboration here. You also did not comment on the 2 other miracles I mentioned.
You ask for evidence from Pagans? Did 1st century Pagans write anything on Jesus, never mind his miracles? You have nothing except what Christian propagandists in the Gospels tell you. Same with us, we only have the Quran, so far at least.
You mention Paul, but do we have independent verification of what he said? Do we have any evidence from the 500 people who were with him in that "vision"? No.
That's not true. You can read "The Dead Sea Scrolls And The Christian Myth (or via: amazon.co.uk)" by John Allegro, and "The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible: The Oldest Known Bible Translated for the First Time into English (or via: amazon.co.uk)" by Martin G. Abegg, Peter Flint and Eugene Ulrich.
Read the verses again "
Say: O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord;"
Follow the original Torah and Injil = Follow that which revealed to you from your Lord = Quran.
It cannot refer to the Torah at the 7th century because it was not similar to the Quran at all. Same for the Injil which was lost at the time. Verse 2:79 confirms my views here.
The second verse "Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good -- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve." is talking about those who believe in Allah (The original followers of the prophets), or those who convert and believe in the Quran. Those who do not believe in Allah will be judged fairly by God at Judgment Day (22:17).
Have a look at the 2 books I cited to you. For the Quran read verse 2:79.

sugarhitman

In the book of Isaiah and others the ability to prophesy proves that a prophet is a prophet and God is God......where are Muhammed's? Where is Islam's?