dark empathy

someone has brought up this name "Pliny the Younger" ring any bells??

Iasion

Greetings,

Yup,
Pliny mentioned Christians longer after the time of Jesus (about the year eleventy one.)

He refers to them singing hymns to Christ "as a god" - but no actual mention of a person Jesus.

You can check it out here :
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/pliny.html


Iasion

Steven Avery

Yep. Professor Schiffman can be refreshingly honest and candid on these types of issues. And I also appreciate his view of the Masoretic Text as a Received Text. Possibly he is the only well-known DSS scholar with that view.

For Roger, I am starting to make some efforts to see if that Archko 1842 prior publication information really came from Goodspeed. Have you seen it anywhere, other than as a non-cited web reference ? Do you know if there is any more Goodspeed Archko material other than what you have reprinted on your site from "Strange Gospels"?

For Iasion, where did you get the phrase on the ossuaries ...
"Father Sukenik a Christian believer"

If it was just a false assumption you made, it would be good to make a public correction and retraction, if you have not done so.

For Toto, I am still hoping to hear your specific theory from post 11
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showpost.php...1&postcount=11
"Christians did not use the cross as a symbol in the first century, but other groups did. So these were probably not Christian tombs"

What are the non-Christian groups would have had crosses on a Jewish ossuary of the 1st century ?
"I dunno" would be at least better than the repeated non-answer.

Gooch's dad, you (or others) may appreciate the section of Hebrews with "author and finisher of our faith" .

Hebrews 12:1-3
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

Shalom,
Steven Avery
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic

Toto

I am sorry that this issue is not very high on my list of priorities. I had previously researched it, and have not had time to find my previous notes.

Crosses were common symbols among pagans, and, IIRC, the adherents of Mithra. Christians therefore could not use crosses to distinguish themselves - they used the fish, or the anchor, or the chi-rho symbol.

Steven Avery

Perhaps, although I recall Freke and Gandy used a fourth century bas relief crucifixion thingy for their cover art. Do you have something more substantive for your 1st century claim ?

And .. these were Jerusalem Jewish ossuaries. Are you claiming that there is evidence of Mithra religion with crosses in Jewish Jerusalem at that time ? Or is it all a bit of hand-waving ?

Again, isn't this more supposition than actual evidentiary reality. I showed above the specific early church writer quotes from about 200 AD relating Christians with the cross. Is there really much fish or anchor or chi-rho symology you can point to from way before that ?

Shalom,
Steven Avery
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic

Roger Pearse

I'd be very interested to hear of data supporting any such association with Mithras.

I'm surprised about the former comment -- that the cross was a common symbol. There is the Egyptian 'ankh' symbol, later named the crux ansata, which is a cross of sorts, but not likely to be confused. Is there any literary evidence associating anyone else with the cross?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Gooch's dad

Praxeus, the fact that the phrase "author and finisher of our faith" is from the anonymous author of Hebrews doesn't mean that it makes any more sense.

John A. Broussard

Does the crooked cross count?

Southwest Indians here in the States. It was common. I vaguely remember it showing up in India, also.

Steven Avery

Perhaps this is a reference to mostly swastika-type symbols ? (which were often good luck symbols and religious symbols in various cultures) .

Anyway, there is a pretty good stretch, both geographic and form, to apply these to supposed mithra and pagan crosses, and even more of a stretch to apply them to 8000 mile away Jewish Jerusalem ossuaries, the original question here.

So both Roger's any my questions remains.

Putting aside the infamous 400 AD bas relief from Freke and Gandy cover, what hard evidence to we have for Toto's comments ?

Shalom,
Steven
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic

John A. Broussard

Does this help any?

The cross symbol


THE SOLAR CROSS
the circular shape of the sun which emphasises the ever
recurring cyclical nature of the seasons is the origin of the
this neolithic symbol. it combines a cross within a circle
and is the simplest conceivable representation of the union
of opposed polarities. probably the oldest symbol in the
world, it appeared in asian, american, european, and indian art
from the dawn of history.

the same symbol is also called
THE WHEEL CROSS
there are two types of wheel crosses:
the four-armed freestanding cross representing shadows
cast by the rising and setting sun at the two solstices,
and the six-armed cross created by addition of the equinoctial
sunrise and sunset shadows.
the one with four spokes, which wheels in time lost their rim,
became ‘real’ crosses.