Red Expendable

Outside of the bible what evidence is there for the existence of Jesus Christ?

Lots of debate about the bible and Christianity, but it seems that the whole of Christianity is based upon this one guy, and yet, where is the evidence of his existence?

Seems like the whole thing would or SHOULD coming crashing down if it can be shown that there is no evidence for J.C.'s existence. I know it won't convince the hardcore believers, but still. What are the facts?

I say evidence and not proof. I'm assuming (maybe I'm wrong to do this) that if there was proof, then there wouldn't be as much, or any, debate about it.

Both theists and non-theists, please reply with any comments, thoughts, sugguestions?

Thanks in advance,
RedEx

Killer Mike

Im an atheist but I find it more "believable" that there was a man who preached for a year or so and gained a small following of believers, and over time this evolved into Christianity. Historically, there were dozens of preachers and messiahas floating around at that time. It seems more likely that at least one of them, would have eventually started a new movement. I look at the mythicists (Jesus never existed) idea similar to that of the creationists movement. Mainstream scholarship agrees that Jesus existed. This is what you will be taught at Harvard for example. I think it is somewhat of a contradiction to accept mainstream biology and evolution, but then not offer the same to Biblical scholarship. It seems more political and in my opinion motivated by religious reasons. I mean what could be better for an atheist then to say Jesus never even existed?

I also think the argument about lack of evidence for his existence is weak at best. I mean there is no evidence whatsoever that my Great Great Great grandather ever existed. Nobody wrote about him, no bones, no writings, etc.. That of course does not mean he did not exist, only that there are no documents that have survived.

If the mythicists could gain more acceptance within mainstream Bible scholarship and their arguments were good enough to convince the scholars at say Harvard, then I will take it more seriously.

sky kunde

I think at least we can say that the lack of evidence show us the man-god depicted on bible never existed.

Iasion

Greetings Red,

You may like to check my page here :
http://members.iinet.net.au/~quentin...lyWriters.html

which briefly lists such references amongst the writers of the period (about 30-180.)

In short, the "evidences" usually given include:
* Josephus
* Tacitus
* Pliny
* Suetonius
* Mara bar-Serapion
* Numenius
* Thallus
* Phlegon
* Lucian
* Fronto
(all of which which can be researched with a quick search, start with http://www.earlychristianwritings.com)


Most of these are suspect, forged, late, or not about Jesus;
none of it is contemporary,
none of it is certain proof of Jesus.


Iasion

hjalti

I've heard about two inscriptions on some ossuaries (or something like that) from the middle of the first century: "Jesus, help!" and "Jesus, he is risen!". I know this isn't evidence for the existence of Jesus of Nazareth but I would like to know if you've heard about this.

Huon

Oh, Mike, YOU are one of the "documents" that survived ! Of course, no bones, no writings.

The mythicists have one good point : they stress the fact that the proofs of the existence of JC are very feeble, if not completely absent, and rely only on the statements of people who believed. If there was a real "technical" proof, it would have been found a long time ago. The last attempt was the "grave of James, the brother of Jesus", well known to be a recent fabrication.

sky kunde

Iasion, your website is really nice.

Mountain Man

None. At least there is nothing written by anyone there at the time. All of what some consider to be evidence is hearsay.The fact is they believe. No evidence is needed.

Julian

I have not heard of this, however, there was a much touted ossuary for James a few years ago. It turned out to be a forgery and the perpetrator was on trial last I heard.

Julian

Mountain Man

That's actually the best argument. Your way would have us believing in invisible pink unicorns since there is no evidence they exist.There is a big difference in believing your ancestors existed and believing that a god exists. No one is asking anyone to base their whole life on the existence of your ancestors. Here's a good example; you claim you have a penny in your pocket. I'll agree because it's inconsequential. You tell me there's a god I have to worship, you're going to have to prove it.