Freethought & Rationalism Archive

vid · 09-14-2008, 05:45 PM

This has nothing to do with christianity/bible, but I need someone versed in Latin to comment on translation of Horace, and I think BC&H is best section to find someone for that.

I found claim on white-supremacist site that Horace quotes racist roman proverb:

Quote:

site
The fair Romans had the proverb, quoted by Horace (Sat., i. 4, 85): :hic niger es; hunc tu, Romane, caveto; He is black, beware of him, Roman.

However, in this english translation, i found the word "niger" translated as "dangerous man": http://www.authorama.com/works-of-horace-6.html

Based on context, it doesn't look like racist proverb at all. Was calling someone "black" used by Horace to denote someone bad, regardless of skin color? Was this usage common? Thanks.

Toto · 09-14-2008, 06:37 PM

Nietzsche in The Genealogy of Morals quoted Horace as an illustration of how words for good and bad acquire meanings. (from here:

Quote:

The signpost to the right road was for me the question: what was the real etymological significance of the designations for "good" coined in the various languages? I found they all led back to the same conceptual transformation—that everywhere "noble," "aristocratic" in the social sense, is the basic concept from which "good" in the sense of "with aristocratic soul," "noble," "with a soul of a high order," "with a privileged soul" necessarily developed: a development which always runs parallel with that other in which "common," "plebeian," "low" are finally transformed into the concept "bad." . . .

The Latin malus [Bad] (beside which I set melas [Greek: black, dark]) may designate the common man as the dark-colored, above all as the black-haired man ("hic niger est—" [From Horace's Satires]), as the pre-Aryan occupant of the soil of Italy who was distinguished most obviously from the blond, that is Aryan, conqueror race by his color; Gaelic, at any rate, offers us a precisely similar case—fin (for example in the name Fin-Gal), the distinguishing word for nobility, finally for the good, noble, pure, originally meant the blond-headed, in contradistinction to the dark, black-haired aboriginal inhabitants.

But this doesn't mean that Horace felt that black was the equivalent of bad. The general agreement of translators is that the satire refers to black-hearted people.

Doug Shaver · 09-14-2008, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid

I found claim on white-supremacist site that Horace quotes racist roman proverb:

If I were debating a racist who threw that quote at me, I would not waste a second on an argument about the translation, even if I were competent in Latin.

I would instead ask: Why should I care a fig about one ancient Roman writer's opinion of black people?

Huon · 09-15-2008, 09:49 AM

The complete quote is this :

absentem qui rodit amicum
He who backbites his absent friend;

qui non defendit alio culpante, solutos
who does not defend, at another’s accusing him;

qui captat risus hominum famamque dicacis,
who affects to raise loud laughs in company, and the reputation of a funny fellow, [dicax : talking sharply, satirical, sarcastic, acute, witty]

fingere qui non uisa potest,
who can feign things he never saw;

conmissa tacere qui nequit:
who cannot keep secrets;

hic niger est, hunc tu, Romane, caueto.
he is a dangerous man: be you, Roman, aware of him.

In this translation, "niger" (black) is translated "dangerous man". Elsewhere I found (in french) "he has a black soul".

This is not a question of skin color.

Another remark : on the racist site, the roman short quote is not well written. They have nobody who knows latin ?

vid · 09-15-2008, 02:47 PM

Thank you, very helpful. I think Voltaire was indeed source for those white supremacist guys.

Does "who does not defend, at another’s accusing him;" refer to defending himself, or defending his nonpresent friend? I can't really make that out from english.

Huon · 09-16-2008, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid

Thank you, very helpful. I think Voltaire was indeed source for those white supremacist guys.

Does "who does not defend, at another’s accusing him;" refer to defending himself, or defending his nonpresent friend? I can't really make that out from english.

"who does not defend his non present friend, at another’s accusing him;"

Exact, "him" is not precise in this case.

vid · 09-16-2008, 03:23 AM

fix: of course i meant Nietzsche, not Voltaire :banghead:

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09-15-2008, 09:49 AM	#4
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	The complete quote is this : absentem qui rodit amicum He who backbites his absent friend; qui non defendit alio culpante, solutos who does not defend, at another’s accusing him; qui captat risus hominum famamque dicacis, who affects to raise loud laughs in company, and the reputation of a funny fellow, [dicax : talking sharply, satirical, sarcastic, acute, witty] fingere qui non uisa potest, who can feign things he never saw; conmissa tacere qui nequit: who cannot keep secrets; hic niger est, hunc tu, Romane, caueto. he is a dangerous man: be you, Roman, aware of him. In this translation, "niger" (black) is translated "dangerous man". Elsewhere I found (in french) "he has a black soul". This is not a question of skin color. Another remark : on the racist site, the roman short quote is not well written. They have nobody who knows latin ?

09-15-2008, 02:47 PM	#5
vid Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Myjava, Slovakia Posts: 384	Thank you, very helpful. I think Voltaire was indeed source for those white supremacist guys. Does "who does not defend, at another’s accusing him;" refer to defending himself, or defending his nonpresent friend? I can't really make that out from english.

09-16-2008, 03:23 AM	#7
vid Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Myjava, Slovakia Posts: 384	fix: of course i meant Nietzsche, not Voltaire :banghead:

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